New kaleun; a few realism questions - Page 2

derstosstrupp · 10-01-23, 08:26 PM

The method of timing a target across the line is absolutely historically accurate. The “stabilized line” feature disappeared on the Standsehrohr wartime attack scopes (big column with seat and pedals), although there is some evidence it may have been retained in some form, as the “Skizzenbuch Band E” sketch for the gyrocompass system shows a socket connection for a stabilized line even during the war. More study required there.

Commanders were provided with MDv 416, which included among many others the following table for estimating speed by this method.

kyle9154 · 10-02-23, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

Stopping the boat underwater in real life near the enemy at periscope depth is a recipe for disaster. A U-boat needed momentum for effective depthkeeping. The exception is the trick of “hanging the boat by the scope”, which was more of a parlor trick, if anything, and possible only in very calm seas. Certainly not something to risk near the enemy.

Correct on U-Jagd. “U-Jagd” means ASW in German. This watch was for timing closure rates for attacking a submerged sub with depth charges. I happened on the MDv for U-Jäger vessels a couple years ago and the watch’s use is fairly well described there.

And that's exactly why it was removed from the Onealex mod, yes it was historical ww2 device but only used on German ASW vessels against British and Russian subs.

Kal_Maximus_U669 · 10-02-23, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

The method of timing a target across the line is absolutely historically accurate. The “stabilized line” feature disappeared on the Standsehrohr wartime attack scopes (big column with seat and pedals), although there is some evidence it may have been retained in some form, as the “Skizzenbuch Band E” sketch for the gyrocompass system shows a socket connection for a stabilized line even during the war. More study required there.

Commanders were provided with MDv 416, which included among many others the following table for estimating speed by this method.

Hey derstosstrupp good evening..
I looked for MDv 416, it is indeed the manual given to the commander of Uboat MDv number 416..would you be kind enough to provide more links on it...... strange I can't find much...
I agree... in terms of the boat, it is impossible to stabilize it perfectly still... the attack and always in motion... the design of the building. ..physical laws required..besides the Germans are pioneers of the genre...a fantastic engineering...just look at the anatomical structure of the type 7 hull...far exceeds what is done in the genre of the time (a shark made for hunting)... all this without counting the evolution throughout the conflict... besides the enemies are eager to steal all this knowledge... especially on types 21... the rest of the story we know it...I criticized the American submarines John Pancoast did not appreciate it...lol...hihi
My best regards, I greatly appreciate your work as well as your YT channel...
sincerely Kal Maximus U669

John Pancoast · 10-02-23, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal_Maximus_U669

Hey derstosstrupp good evening..
I looked for MDv 416, it is indeed the manual given to the commander of Uboat MDv number 416..would you be kind enough to provide more links on it...... strange I can't find much...
I agree... in terms of the boat, it is impossible to stabilize it perfectly still... the attack and always in motion... the design of the building. ..physical laws required..besides the Germans are pioneers of the genre...a fantastic engineering...just look at the anatomical structure of the type 7 hull...far exceeds what is done in the genre of the time (a shark made for hunting)... all this without counting the evolution throughout the conflict... besides the enemies are eager to steal all this knowledge... especially on types 21... the rest of the story we know it...I criticized the American submarines John Pancoast did not appreciate it...lol...hihi
My best regards, I greatly appreciate your work as well as your YT channel...
sincerely Kal Maximus U669

Oh, I don't care if someone criticizes the U.S. subs. But I stand behind my statement that the German subs were obsolete by the time the war started/soon after, and technologically inferior.

They would have made a good WW1 boat. But not so much a WW2 one.

Kal_Maximus_U669 · 10-02-23, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Oh, I don't care if someone criticizes the U.S. subs. But I stand behind my statement that the German subs were obsolete by the time the war started/soon after, and technologically inferior.

They would have made a good WW1 boat. But not so much a WW2 one.

Hey John mes meilleurs salutations

yes the credits for the realization of the projects arrived much too late..Donitz has complained enough..
to say that they are technologically outdated... you are going a little quickly "to do the job"... but then... who is the best?.? I think I know your answer.... but I am listening to you..
I won't offend you again my dear John...I promise...

Amicalement

John Pancoast · 10-02-23, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal_Maximus_U669

Hey John mes meilleurs salutations

yes the credits for the realization of the projects arrived much too late..Donitz has complained enough..
when to say that technologically outdated...you are going a little quickly with the work...but then in your eyes who and the best?.? I think I already know your answer but I am listening..
Je ne vous offenserez plus mon chère John ....c est promis...

Amicalement

Don't worry, I'm not offended in the least.

Zosimus · 10-02-23, 05:42 PM

I would say that it depends entirely on how you hunt and what you're up against. If it's a single ship that is closing, it's pretty easy to get into position and just eyeball it. If it's constant distance, it's pretty easy to use a three- or four-bearing method to figure out how to intercept it.

If it's a single ship moving away, just fall into its path and you will know the course. From there, you can just go out and around to sink it.

In terms of finding the speed, this is easy. Let's assume the ship is going 30º and you don't know the speed, but you think it may be 8 knots. If so, you should lead the ship by 14º — that is to say that you should try to turn perpendicular to its course when a straight line from the ship to your vessel is 44 degrees. Another way to say that is that the ship should be 224º in your periscope as you approach submerged. If it's moving 8 knots, then it will stay exactly at 244º so if it slowly falls back to 240º then it's only going 7 knots whereas if it moves ahead to 248º then you know it's going 9 knots or faster.

You can work out these numbers easily just by using the drawing tool. For example, draw a straight line at 70º and a perpendicular line that intersects at 90º (160º). Measure back 7 knots from the intersection to represent the ship's speed in knots and then use the compass to draw a 2 knot circle. You will find that measuring from the back location to the right portion of the circle will yield an angle of 86º so if you are at exactly 86º off of the ship and you go 2 knots perpendicular, you will be on a collision course. It will be a simple matter to just slow to 1 knot or reverse a bit before firing to get at about 400-500m, which I consider the perfect range.

If it's a convoy, you can pretty easily eyeball the general direction of the convoy and get in front. As you penetrate the screens, you should easily be able to zoom in on the map and draw a line through the ships to find their exact course. If that feels like cheating to you, simply watch them through the periscope as you pass the first lane in. If you are going, let's say, true north 0º and the ships line up perfectly at bearing 275º then you know their true course is 85º and you can adjust your course to 355º to be perfectly perpendicular.

You don't need to worry about range if you're perpendicular. And you can fire at ships in front and behind you simultaneously.

derstosstrupp · 10-03-23, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal_Maximus_U669

Hey derstosstrupp good evening..
I looked for MDv 416, it is indeed the manual given to the commander of Uboat MDv number 416..would you be kind enough to provide more links on it...... strange I can't find much...
I agree... in terms of the boat, it is impossible to stabilize it perfectly still... the attack and always in motion... the design of the building. ..physical laws required..besides the Germans are pioneers of the genre...a fantastic engineering...just look at the anatomical structure of the type 7 hull...far exceeds what is done in the genre of the time (a shark made for hunting)... all this without counting the evolution throughout the conflict... besides the enemies are eager to steal all this knowledge... especially on types 21... the rest of the story we know it...I criticized the American submarines John Pancoast did not appreciate it...lol...hihi
My best regards, I greatly appreciate your work as well as your YT channel...
sincerely Kal Maximus U669

Thanks Karl Maximus! Here is MDv 416T where that is from:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iwj...w?usp=drivesdk

Kal_Maximus_U669 · 10-03-23, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

Thanks Karl Maximus! Here is MDv 416T where that is from:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iwj...w?usp=drivesdk

many thanks derstosstrupp
Wow ..great incredible...reading in perspective...excelent
My sincere greetings Kal Maximus U669

Kal_Maximus_U669 · 10-03-23, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zosimus

I would say that it depends entirely on how you hunt and what you're up against. If it's a single ship that is closing, it's pretty easy to get into position and just eyeball it. If it's constant distance, it's pretty easy to use a three- or four-bearing method to figure out how to intercept it.

If it's a single ship moving away, just fall into its path and you will know the course. From there, you can just go out and around to sink it.

In terms of finding the speed, this is easy. Let's assume the ship is going 30º and you don't know the speed, but you think it may be 8 knots. If so, you should lead the ship by 14º — that is to say that you should try to turn perpendicular to its course when a straight line from the ship to your vessel is 44 degrees. Another way to say that is that the ship should be 224º in your periscope as you approach submerged. If it's moving 8 knots, then it will stay exactly at 244º so if it slowly falls back to 240º then it's only going 7 knots whereas if it moves ahead to 248º then you know it's going 9 knots or faster.

You can work out these numbers easily just by using the drawing tool. For example, draw a straight line at 70º and a perpendicular line that intersects at 90º (160º). Measure back 7 knots from the intersection to represent the ship's speed in knots and then use the compass to draw a 2 knot circle. You will find that measuring from the back location to the right portion of the circle will yield an angle of 86º so if you are at exactly 86º off of the ship and you go 2 knots perpendicular, you will be on a collision course. It will be a simple matter to just slow to 1 knot or reverse a bit before firing to get at about 400-500m, which I consider the perfect range.

If it's a convoy, you can pretty easily eyeball the general direction of the convoy and get in front. As you penetrate the screens, you should easily be able to zoom in on the map and draw a line through the ships to find their exact course. If that feels like cheating to you, simply watch them through the periscope as you pass the first lane in. If you are going, let's say, true north 0º and the ships line up perfectly at bearing 275º then you know their true course is 85º and you can adjust your course to 355º to be perfectly perpendicular.

You don't need to worry about range if you're perpendicular. And you can fire at ships in front and behind you simultaneously.

The techniques seem interesting and worth trying... But there are a lot of approximations... in the real world it is not reliable enough... try in games... thank you for your demonstration..
Kind regards, Kal Maximus U669

10-01-23, 08:26 PM	#16
derstosstrupp Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 918 Downloads: 490 Uploads: 0	The method of timing a target across the line is absolutely historically accurate. The “stabilized line” feature disappeared on the Standsehrohr wartime attack scopes (big column with seat and pedals), although there is some evidence it may have been retained in some form, as the “Skizzenbuch Band E” sketch for the gyrocompass system shows a socket connection for a stabilized line even during the war. More study required there. Commanders were provided with MDv 416, which included among many others the following table for estimating speed by this method. __________________ Ask me anything about the Type VII or IX! One-Stop Targeting Shop: https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...WwBt-1vjW28JbO My YT Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIJ...9FXbD3S2kgwdPQ

10-02-23, 05:42 PM	#22
Zosimus XO Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Chorrillos, Lima, Peru Posts: 401 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I would say that it depends entirely on how you hunt and what you're up against. If it's a single ship that is closing, it's pretty easy to get into position and just eyeball it. If it's constant distance, it's pretty easy to use a three- or four-bearing method to figure out how to intercept it. If it's a single ship moving away, just fall into its path and you will know the course. From there, you can just go out and around to sink it. In terms of finding the speed, this is easy. Let's assume the ship is going 30º and you don't know the speed, but you think it may be 8 knots. If so, you should lead the ship by 14º — that is to say that you should try to turn perpendicular to its course when a straight line from the ship to your vessel is 44 degrees. Another way to say that is that the ship should be 224º in your periscope as you approach submerged. If it's moving 8 knots, then it will stay exactly at 244º so if it slowly falls back to 240º then it's only going 7 knots whereas if it moves ahead to 248º then you know it's going 9 knots or faster. You can work out these numbers easily just by using the drawing tool. For example, draw a straight line at 70º and a perpendicular line that intersects at 90º (160º). Measure back 7 knots from the intersection to represent the ship's speed in knots and then use the compass to draw a 2 knot circle. You will find that measuring from the back location to the right portion of the circle will yield an angle of 86º so if you are at exactly 86º off of the ship and you go 2 knots perpendicular, you will be on a collision course. It will be a simple matter to just slow to 1 knot or reverse a bit before firing to get at about 400-500m, which I consider the perfect range. If it's a convoy, you can pretty easily eyeball the general direction of the convoy and get in front. As you penetrate the screens, you should easily be able to zoom in on the map and draw a line through the ships to find their exact course. If that feels like cheating to you, simply watch them through the periscope as you pass the first lane in. If you are going, let's say, true north 0º and the ships line up perfectly at bearing 275º then you know their true course is 85º and you can adjust your course to 355º to be perfectly perpendicular. You don't need to worry about range if you're perpendicular. And you can fire at ships in front and behind you simultaneously.