Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[ikalugin]

My point was actually that one should try to stay objective by looking into the evidence. Ie it is perfectly reasonable to speculate about Russian Armed Forces in Ukraine, however one should try to provide evidence when stating it as not a speculation.

Ie I try to fight my national bias (which exists for anyone) by looking into evidence and trying to make rational/logical conclusions from it. In the video itself I do not see any such evidence (of Russian Armed Forces operating the vehicles) and this is why I have asked if anyone did see something that I have missed.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Ie I try to fight my national bias

btw, this is a forlorn fight for you.

Originally Posted by ikalugin

(which exists for anyone)

how do you know? are you a 'sociology professor'?
I doubt.

[Skybird]

ikalugin, what about Russian Armed Forces operating their vehicles and wearing their uniforms with camouflaged national Russian emblems?

To hide the national Russian ownership and army membership, is part of this way of warfare. To prevent identification and thus prevent being held responsible..

There were the British buccaneers once who officially were marauders and pirates of the sea, but in reality aided the Spanish fleet with official order by her British majesty. Formally, England had nothing to do with these raids. Practically it waged war against Spain.

And what about Russian tanks and heavy weapons provided by the regular Russian forces to separatist whom were also trained ny Russian specialists...

I do not mind whether Russian army units with unhidden insignias are standing in the Ukraine or not, or have their national emblems hidden or painted over, or have handed their equipment to Ukrainian Russians and separatists. Practically Russia is at war with the Ukraine, and all this lipstick and mascara only is for trying to spread doubt and preventing unity in the West.

I also remind of statements by captured as well as unsuspecting Russian soldiers - giving me personally the impression of not realising the dimension of what they were saying, they usually were extremely young - that confirmed that Russian soldiers are fighting in the Ukraine. And please do not tell me Putin version of it, that they all are doung it in their holidays and had gotten vacancy leave from the Russian army.

Me maybe will never see Russian emblems on uniforms and vehicles operating in the Donbass and around Luhansk. Well, terrorists in the ME often also do not wear uniforms, they also wave no hands and shout "I am the terrorist, shoot me!" . They even intentionally melt into the background of the civilians around them.

I have a lot of understanding for the Russian motivation, that is not to excuse all and everything, but I think I can differ between the world as I would like to have it, and the world as it really is, and I understand how it came this far and why Putin does what he does, by internal as well as external reasons. I am realist. But don't take from my understanding for Russia that I am naive.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

all this lipstick and mascara only is for trying to spread doubt and preventing unity in the West.

And a great job it's doing as well... NATO hasn't been this united since 1949...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

And a great job it's doing as well... NATO hasn't been this united since 1949...

Becasue they do not believe it.

Also, the so-called feuilleton that in Germany traditionally is extremely far left-leaning, and much of the humoristically so-called German intelligenzia, fall for it, and warn and caution endlessly against not acting too much against Russia. Thatthe party Die Linke even demands NATO to not react at all, is no surprise, they are formed up to huge degrees by GDR-sympathisers and people who still transfigure the SED.

Anyhow, I still have not seen a robust adaptation of NATO to the new political realities. That rapid reaciton force they want to increase - is a paper tiger so far and in case of a determined attack again st the Baltic or Poland would not mean much difference.

Has you noted the big surprise by NATO chieftains when they hesitently had to admit that the Russians were able to mobilize 40,000+ troops near the border surprisingly fast? They too have watched the wars of 92, 03 - and they draw consequences.

If there is one lesson to be learned before any other - there it is.

Also, a valid counterstrategy/tactic against Russia's new little-green-men tactics of hidden warfare, NATO also has not found or formulated so far. You can counter that only by substantial permanent combat forces stationed in the according territories. Not by forces that are not there but are meant to be flown in later.

Any bidders?

A German piece on the German budget, and why it owuld be pontless currently to just in crease it.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/u.../10656062.html

I also point at that comment by an anonymous reader, saying this

Zuviel Häuptlinge kaum Macher

Bin seit jahren im Reservistenverband Berlin und sehe über Übungen was in der Truppe los ist. Es ist nur noch ein Spassverein. Wenige müssen die Arbeit machen (Auslandseinsätze etc.) und der Rest sitzt und wartet die Zeit bis zur Pensionierung ab (sogenannte Unterstützungskommandos). Das sind die Kostentreiber!! In den Kasernen laufen Heer, Marine und Luftwaffe rum, da viele Truppenteile aufgelöst worden sind und jetzt Personalüberhang herrscht.

Die Reservisten habe den Auftrag die ausscheidenenden Soldaten in der Schießausbildung zu unterstützen und anzuleiten (soweit keine Beorderung vorliegt) Seit diesem jahr können wir das nicht merh durchführen, da die Schießbahnen nur bis 16.00 Uhr geöffnet sind (wir gehen ja noch nebenbei arbeiten). Es wird alles runtergfahren. Das Material verrottet, da keine Leute mehr da sind die Ahnung haben oder es pflegen können.
Wir haben von der Truppe Waffen erhalten die waren so dreckig, da habe wir die Reinigungsketten nicht mal reinbekommen.
So siehtes aus. Geld ist genug da, nur es geht in die falschen Bereiche.

Anmerkung zum Problem G36. Die haben ein Problem, wir haben die ziviele Version und die Waffenrohre halten nicht mal 1000 Schuss. Wir haben sogenannte Überschläge in der Scheibe. D.h. das Geschoss überschlägt sich und fliegt nicht rotierend. Kenne jetzt zwei Fälle wo die Waffenrohre getauscht worden sind. Nach max. 1000 Schuß-. Kein Reservist der aktiv im Reservistenverband schießt kauft sich noch eine Waffe von HK die sind einfach zu Störanfällig und die Treffleistung ist na ja. Es gibt besseres für das Geld!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Das bmvg ist viel zu gross und unfelxibel. Des weiteren gibt es ohne Ende Dienststellen die der Bw unterstehen aber nichts direkt damit zu tun haben. Personalamt, Materialämter, Kreisämter, Rechnungsstelle etc. Wenn mann die mal ausgleidern würde und nur die reine Treuppe sehen würde, da würden alle weinen.

Until some years ago, I knew several professionals in the BW, who also saw operation time in Afghan istan. Already ten years ago they were complaining about right these things.

And when I get aorund in my city of Münster here, and pass German barracks and BW installations - and see that fat-bellied private nightwatch men in their 50s and who are employees of civil contractors stand at the gates and protect BW perimeters and buildings, then I wonder what kind of message it sends to our enemies in the ME or elsewhere that our glorious army cannot even afford to protect its assets by itself. It's hilarious. Pensioneers protecting the German army...?

[ikalugin]

Still there is a world of difference between supplying equipment, supplies and instructors (and what not) and when you have actual regular army units fighting in the war.

Thus I would always ask (for evidence) when people claim the later. The issue here is that both sides confuse the situation (Russia by denying everything and West by claiming that Russian Armed Forces actively participate in the war, both without objective proofs of their claims) and so both sides are as bad.

As to the "vocation" troops, border incidents have been happening before - for example Ukrainian troops crossing border. Morever even if presence of Russian troops on Ukranian soil was proven, it does not prove their direct participation in the war, they could be (for example) training or advising.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Still there is a world of difference between supplying equipment, supplies and instructors (and what not) and when you have actual regular army units fighting in the war.

no, there is not.

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Thus I would always ask (for evidence) when people claim the later.

evidences confirming both the former and the latter were already posted but you keep denying them living in some SF world.

Originally Posted by ikalugin

and West by claiming that Russian Armed Forces actively participate in the war,

artillery support IS active participation similarly to supplying with equipment, instructors and intelligence. All of these have been confirmed. Step outside your imaginative world and you will (most likely) see them.

[Jimbuna]

This debate should stay within the bounds of SubSim policy and rules...please keep it that way.

[Onkel Neal]

I'm becoming to be inclined agree with Gorby.

In March this year, Gorbachev wrote about the Ukrainian turmoil on his website and called for mass media to stop adding to the tension in order to prevent what he called “a tragic schism between two brotherly nations.”

http://rt.com/politics/185308-gorbac...isis-dialogue/

Of course, he also says

the Ukrainian conflict can only be settled through dialogue, both inside the country and at an international level.

But is seems like nothing will be resolved with dialogue until after Russia carves off another piece of Ukraine for itself.


We (the West) have a red line, and that is NATO. Until that is crossed, we have no war to fight. If Putin tries his Sudetenland tricks on the Baltics, then we are at war.

[Skybird]

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/01...nvasion-intel/

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

But is seems like nothing will be resolved with dialogue until after Russia carves off another piece of Ukraine for itself.


We (the West) have a red line, and that is NATO. Until that is crossed, we have no war to fight. If Putin tries his Sudetenland tricks on the Baltics, then we are at war.

This is dependent on if Ukranian authorities can reach a compromise on their policies with Russia. If they do not they would be further pressured. The Russian terms were not really changed throught the conflict and they are not really that impossible or horrible (no worse than IMF terms when they give you a loan I am sure).

That said at the moment such a compromise is becomming less and less likely.

Sadly, history teaches us that this was not the case in the past. This and the manuever room of the article 5 (discussed above) makes me less than certain that this would happen.

[Oberon]

Speaking of the Baltic states:

http://www.postimees.ee/2910947/kait...usel-venemaale

( http://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comme...gency_officer/ )

[ikalugin]

Special forces operators doing their job? Or a false flag?

[Oberon]

Or mafia, they're not exactly under-armed in Russia post-Yeltsin.

[ikalugin]

Organised crime in Russia is not -that- bad anymore though I find it somewhat unclear as to what kind of armed force they were using.
p.s. - it appears that modern sub discussions are not very active atm , anyplace in the anglo sphere where I could find those?
p.p.s - it shows that there are some missing pages in this discussion (pages 97 98 99 are not availiable)