Here we go again-Ukraine once again

[mapuc]

Another conspiracy

Yesterday I read a comment where someone claimed the only reason to why USA is helping Ukraine so much has to do with Petrodollar.

Either I put this up or this

Don't know which one fits best.

Markus

[Catfish]

I'll never understand why Germany gave up the Gepard though, this still is one of the best AA or FlaK tanks that ever were.

[Jimbuna]

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I'll never understand why Germany gave up the Gepard though, this still is one of the best AA or FlaK tanks that ever were.

We agree!

I only know "from theory" - you by practice?

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I'll never understand why Germany gave up the Gepard though, this still is one of the best AA or FlaK tanks that ever were.

Both of you are showing your age . Kinda like how older Americans long for the blast of a battleship’s 16 inch guns. But today those ships are just a tourist attraction at the local naval museum.

Back in the day the Gepard was a fierce little kitty however I’m afraid today it’s just an old and obsolete Cold War weapon system. Replaced long ago by many more options of vastly lower cost and much much more modern point and shoot weapons capable of being fielded and launched by one soldier with minimal training.

[Skybird]

You seem to think the Gepard's two 35mm will be used as Flak only. If so, that assumption would be a mistake.

Remember the German "Eight-Eight" in WW2, or the 20mm Zwilling (Twin). Both were used with devastating effect against ground targets and tanks.

Now imagine what a Gepard would do to an IFV, or infantry. Its combat range is 6km, the full shooting cadence with both cannons is 1100 rounds per minute. At that speed is spends all its ammo in less than 40 seconds if constantly firing (why would one want that...)

Have fun, dear slow-moving IFV - after you dated the Gepard, your remains will not identify anymore you as what you once have been.


Of those Gepards get ammo from Switzerland, that is.

[Jeff-Groves]

Ever seen what a LAW or TOW would do to an 88 or 20mm Zwilling?

The best armoured Units fielded still can't match trained and equipped determined Ground Forces.

If they could? You'd have no foot soldiers today!

How much good did heavy armour do in Afganistan?

[Catfish]

^ Nope. The Gepard is still one of the best AA systems, the radar fequency is variable and it does not have to be switched on persistently (also sports two independent radar systems with consistently switching frequencies). Once a target is tracked via radar only passive optical sensors continue to follow the target.
One volley takes 10-12 shots and it usually hits at extreme range. Hit ratio is still at >= 98 percent, and those bullets will not be diverted by chaff. It also has rockets though, like the Roland or Ozelot.
So with the now freed 300.000 shots from Brazil (+ the original 23.000, +maybe some from Switzerland) this means appx. 25.000 volleys. Divided by 50 of those tanks each could fire 5.000 of them.

The tank was taken off the german STAN because there would never be a war again and because tanks are evil, noisy, and pollute the air. Anyone defending them is an environment nazi


edit: Gepard was never intended to be used at the front, it is a mobile defensive platform against aerial targets at the rear, for defending depots, makeshift airbases, or marching columns on the way to the front.
If used at the front it would be certainly vulnerable to enemy ground forces. I do not think the Ukrainians will follow the russian idea for attacks in areas with no reconnaissance, but to defend in the background against enemy planes and helicopters. So it indeed is not an "offensive" weapon if used properly, and Scholz does not have to have a bad conscience.

edit2:The TOW was very effective but is now quite old, there are much more modern systems.

edit3: it will of course be vulnerable against drones, but what i saw of russian drones up to now did not impress

edit4: able to deep fording (right word?). During a military drill one red (=enemy) company hid three Gepards in a shallow river, gave a nasty surprise

[Skybird]

Yes, the Ukriane war shows the power of ATGMs, nevertheless I trsut the Ukrianians thgat once they got triane dion the Gepard they know how to use them fopr effect. The battle they need to do now is different to that in the Niorth, Kyiv. They now need big fists PLUS mobility, even more so if doing counter attacks to retake ground. Thats why they so desperately ask for tanks (and artillery).

The Gepard, btw, can still be left to pure air defence, of course. Its said to be the Flak tank with the shortest reaction time to low flying threats.

The big question marks are on ammo, and trainingtime. Bundeswehr officers point out its the most complex combat platform the Bundeswehr ever had, and that you need months to train a crew on it. It seems the handling of it is anything but easy...?! Personally, i woud, have preferred to send Leopard-1s and, most likely, even easier to re-train on Marders. The T-72 was designed to beat the Leopard-1, but a Leopard-1's 105mm can still dominate any IFV around. And it is faster and more agile than a T-72, and has better sights. It just must avoid to drive into the crosshairs of a T-72. T-72s simply outgun Leopard-1s.

[Rockstar]

The Gepard was purpose built as a anti-aircraft weapon system for a threat which no longer exists. It uses a RADAR to acquire which when activated not not only lites up the target but itself as well. Which IMO would be like placing a big “kick me” sign on your back.

Today there are several infantry level manpad systems that can do a better job than the Gepard. Plus, if the goal is targeting ground forces or armor who needs an active Radar that gives away your position when just a little “Kentucky windage’ will do.


Btw, he’s from Tennessee, but it’s closer to Kentucky than I am

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

So with the now freed 300.000 shots from Brazil (+ the orignal 23.000)

Have not heard of that news!? Good!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

The Gepard was purpose built as a anti-aircraft weapon system for a threat which no longer exists. It uses a RADAR to acquire which when activated not not only lites up the target but itself as well. Which IMO would be like placing a big “kick me” sign on your back.

Today there are several infantry level manpad systems that can do a better job than the Gepard. Plus, if the goal is targeting ground forces or armor who needs an active Radar when a little “Kentucky windage’ will do.

The radar on the Gepard is not needed to follow targets once they have been lit, the target is foloowed by optics only - not necessarily radar. And as I said: the Gepard is said to the Flak tank worldwide with the shortest (radar) reaction time. The ZSU-23 and ZSU-57 needed to track with radar much longer before getting a solution.



The Bundeswehr wanted to keep the Gepard, it had to give them up because politicians wanted it so. The whole army air defence regiment was given up a decade ago. Thats why Germany until today has no defence system against drones of any size.

[Rockstar]

I can appreciate the Gepard’s ability to optically train it’s 35mm cannon. But it’s certainly not a front line offensive weapon designed to demilitarize Russian armor or infantry. It might be useful as defensive weapon in the rear with the gear protecting supply chains. Only if Ukraine can afford the time and personnel to train their troops to use the damn thing. But, I think more modern surveillance and weapon systems already have that covered. Frankly I think the offer is just a way for others to think Germany is finally doing something.

But considering Germany is Europes largest economy which has always and will forever be dependent on outside energy resources to keep it going. If Germany overtly supports Ukraine with hardware that might make a difference. Putin would in a heartbeat turn the lights out like he reportedly did to Poland. And if the German economy collapses the rest of Europe will follow. In other words you’re being held hostage. But I also know you were warned by every president since Kennedy.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

. Frankly I think the offer is just a way for others to think Germany is finally doing something.

Yes, I agree. Bubble-Olaf appeases not only Mpscow, but als the left wing in his party (old people with prehistoric biographie in the anti-war movement, and a smokescreen to deiece everoyne else.

But considering Germany is Europes largest economy which has always and will forever be dependent on outside energy resources to keep it going. If Germany overtly supports Ukraine with hardware that might make a difference. Putin would in a heartbeat turn the lights out like he reportedly did to Poland. And if the German economy collapses the rest of Europe will follow. In other words you’re being held hostage. But I also know you were warned by every president since Kennedy.

True again. The stopping of gas deliveries to Poland and Bulgaria in reality are a message to Germany. I think that the question is not if but when Russia will switch off gas for Germany. Olaf the Procrastinator promised in an interview with the NYT if that happens he would step down. So one can see something positive in even that. But I believe it only when i see it happening.

Anyway, Germany is heading for a deep and lasting crisis. Gas. Stagflation and recession. Debt excesses. Self-made energy transformation madness. And inflation I expect to grow further and stay for long time: years.

The good times are over. Never will it be as good again in the rest of my lifetime as it was in the past. And the globe will turn more and more into a rumble pit for the rest of this century. Including very huge wars, and very big economic, financial, food and water crisis.

[Jeff-Groves]

Germany's actions overtly supports Putin.
Let's make it official and call it WWIII and start the bombing.
"Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war."