The future of Submarine simulations - Page 2

Kaleun_Endrass · 02-04-13, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinReg

Yes a kickstarter project is probably our best hope, but no to buying the name Silent Hunter.

And then what? A kickstarter project to reach what goals? I'm sorry, but all those messages I read about crowd-funding are without concepts. What will you do with the money?
If you think of hiring a game studio, the first thing would be to have an offer or to know the costs for development to set up your kickstarter goals. And if you take a look at kickstarter projects without some stuff to show and attract backers there are no backers. What do we have other than our wishes right now?

I like the suggestion of MAXLD and his link to wmdportal.com
Unfortunately, there is just that one project, but the concept is interesting. A subsim project similar to the CARS project might be a good way to get our game done. But again it should be under the patronage of SUBSIM.com to essemble a strong developer team and raise interest in the whole community.

I strongly believe that the subsim we dream of can only be done by the community. We have a bunch of really good 3d artists and programmers here. With high professional tools available (for free) like CryENGINE3 and ScaleForm it's possible to achieve the quality of an AAA game. There might be crunchpoints and stumbling blocks along the development process and right there could a game studio assist that get payed by crowd-funded money.

Blacklight · 02-04-13, 06:39 PM

I still want my modern subsim. I'm VERY tired of being stuck in World War II all the time. What about developing an open source subsim that's modular, kind of like the "Orbiter" of subsims where you could just have a repository of platforms and scenery to download and put in. That way, you could probably organize a campaign in any era you would want. Even possible futures.

I think that using Dangerous Waters as a model for this, with all it's panels of controls and interface would be an excellent control interface to emulate. It's simple and works efficiently.

We would also want a mission editor (of course) that's similar to Dangerous Waters where you can set up missions anywhere in the world with a topographical map of the earth in it as well as the ability to scrip campaigns that could last years similar to Silent Hunter III and IV.

I don't think Fancy Fancy graphics would even be needed. I'm perfectly fine with Dangerous Waters-like graphics, maybe with an upgrade to bring them in line to where SHIII is.
There's a reason I'm saying this. We would want this subsim to be playable by as many people as possible because, frankly, our fan base is so small, that we need every person we can get. Not everyone is going to have the latest and greatest video cards. So this sim should be made to run on older systems as well as new ones. This will maximize the number of people who can play it.

Shiplord · 02-05-13, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleun_Endrass

I strongly believe that the subsim we dream of can only be done by the community. We have a bunch of really good 3d artists and programmers here. With high professional tools available (for free) like CryENGINE3 and ScaleForm it's possible to achieve the quality of an AAA game.

The team of the Open Source Subsim Danger from the Deep had already asked several times for help here and in other forums, but no one has shown real interest in joining the team.

drupps · 03-11-13, 10:31 AM

It seems like most game publishers and developers are doing the DLC think lately. I think the best idea for a niche genre especially is to release the game after a prolonged beta. And add new ships, campaigns, etc to further the development and patches for the product.

I realize this means more cost to the users, but I think it keeps interest and could in fact create interest to people that might not have played a game in the genre.

Also Ubisoft needs to get the game on Steam, Origins, all the digital distribution services. I use Steam and have bought many games through that that I probably wouldn't have through retail or digitally on their website.

thefinnishguy · 04-03-13, 10:15 AM

In my opinion, it would be great with a new subsim about the Cold War, many people are already tired with WW2 subsims. Or maybe an early Cold War sim
with diesel subs like the Whiskey and Barbel? Like a 1960's online-based open-source sim

?

JagdPanzer44 · 04-04-13, 12:39 PM

I'm not optimistic at all about the future of these sims.

If we were still in the days of independent studios putting out quality games - I might have some hope; but in this day of a handful of bloated corporate entities owning everything, I'd say we've seen the last of any presentable submarine simulations.

And I'd rather Ubi stay out of the equation altogether - they've done enough damage. Selling a rough framework of a game at full price and then expecting a small niche of modders to spend the next 2 years making it playable is insulting. Fool me once, shame on Ubi, fool me two or three times...well...

Our only salvation would be some small company out of nowhere surprising us with a great, working sub-sim that would set a new standard.

But realistically, I don't see that happening.

ruky00 · 04-05-13, 04:31 AM

I am not native English so excuse me if it is difficult to understand some parts.

I found this thread really interesting, and looks like some people think that developing a new game should be a good option, you know, hire some developers and start building the code. Let me tell you what's my opinion about that. Of course, I may be wrong, probably I am wrong but some may feel it useful.

First a bit of background.

I always wanted to play a game which no one seems to be interested into developing. speaking with my friends/colleagues about it they told me that now days with plenty of game engines available it is an easy task, so I decided to code my dreamed game my self.

My programing experience dated from 15 years ago, using the old Turbo C or Turbo Pascal on MSDOS when I was a student, after that I just coded small bash/perl scripts to help in my day work. No knowledge of OOP, or modern languages/IDEs ...

First I decided which language should I use, finally I decided python due everybody said it is easy. Then I tried some free game engines, after some trials I chose a big and well documented engine which seemed ideal for my proposals.

Then I sit on my chair and started to code, but after a while I realized that game building is not about programing, first and foremost you need to desing the game, define its rules, its parts, its dynamics ...

Led me try to explain with an example. I am a big fan of UFO game, there is a open source project that is coding a new engine for it [openXcom]. A gamer can play the original one, or the new project and he will not appreciate any differences, indeed if you don't tell him he will think that he is playing the same game. Yep, the same game but they don't share a single line of the code.

So the game is above the code/engine used, now days you can implement it with a great number of technologies, some will need more resources other less but if the game is not well designed it doesn't matter the technology used, it will be a fiasco.

In my humble opinion, if the community wants to build their own subsim, they need good game designers, and there is no need of good coding skills or technology knowledge from the start, rather than, a well though game mechanics is far more important.

When you have the game designed and began to code it, no matter which technology was finally chosen, you realize that a good code doesn't means a great game. Yep, it seems obvious but some times the quantity and quality of work outside of coding doesn't seems well pondered. It is not just good quality artwork even the gamer orders flow needs to be work with well designed user interface, which its not easy.

That's the reason why most open source games looks so awful, yep there is plenty of talented developers which can code by free, but its hard to join them with talented 3D designers, music mens, ...

A community developed game would be really nice, but rather than go en hire developers opening a wiki to start a brain storming ideas for the game may be better.

If some one has read all the brick, thank you for you patience with an old guy.

Miki_Mundi · 04-17-13, 02:16 PM

I love this type of game.
As to the future of games like it?
Well, tbh, I think that todays generation of young gamers want instant gratification, easy kills, cheats and awesome firepower.

Games like Silent Hunter unfortunately do not fit into this demographic, requiring skill, routine and patience to excel effectively.

To move forward, this genre would need to appeal to both demographics and essentially widen the market.

To appeal to the first SUBset [pardon the pun] it would possibly have to take the form of an arcadey open world format, whereby you have a semi-linear storyline with main missions,a protagonist, ally characters, enemies and an arch nemisis.
Side missions would fill out the game and various "power ups" not related to realism would fulfill the urge of those who feel the necessity to disproportionally wipe everything out of existance.

To appeal to the purist however, the game would need a slightly different tone, still open world play but with the emphasis on realism with attentive graphics and an immersive (should I say SUBmersive for pun no.2!) environment.
It wouldn't change too much from Silent Hunter 3 (not played other versions) in the fact that micro management of several details such as crew, weapons, fatigue, damage etc but with definate improvements related to modern computer hardware to bring it into the 21st century.
The possibility of a choice of theatres from WW2 until present day could appeal with some interesting what if scenarios.
The ability to create your own story is paramount here.

Needless to say, online gaming is also an important part of anygame in this current day and age and would probably appeal to both the gamers and the purist.

Anyway, just my two penneth worth...

desertstriker · 04-23-13, 07:07 PM

as much as it pains me to say it the subsim genre is more than likely dead. no corporation will want to pump money in the development of something that only 5-10% of the gaming community will consider buying and of that only 2-5% will accualy buy. it will probably end in us poor chaps making our own games and even then we will slowly die away because every few people get recruited to the subsim genre and of those are the survivors who are not immediately turned off by games like SH5. People just don't seem to have the respect for the games and what they stand for. like today many people don't hear about the battle of the atlantic they hear more about the land battles than the fear of Uboats.

LoBlo · 06-02-13, 12:56 PM

Maybe its a generational thing. WWII is becoming farther and farther away in history and modern submarines don't have the mystique of cold-war warriors they once have. How's a up and coming young gamer community even exposed to the concept of submarine warfare nowadays? Outside of Ubisoft, who else is making anything of quality?

lb

Vince82 · 06-03-13, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Maybe its a generational thing. WWII is becoming farther and farther away in history and modern submarines don't have the mystique of cold-war warriors they once have. How's a up and coming young gamer community even exposed to the concept of submarine warfare nowadays? Outside of Ubisoft, who else is making anything of quality?

lb

Quality arcade games like WOW:

Documentaries (and youtube in general):

Julhelm · 06-03-13, 05:07 AM

That's not World of Warships. It looks like Battlestations Pacific.

Vince82 · 06-03-13, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julhelm

That's not World of Warships. It looks like Battlestations Pacific.

Yes you're right it's Battlestations Pacific. And not WoW.

Nexus7 · 06-08-13, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Maybe its a generational thing. WWII is becoming farther and farther away in history and modern submarines don't have the mystique of cold-war warriors they once have. How's a up and coming young gamer community even exposed to the concept of submarine warfare nowadays? Outside of Ubisoft, who else is making anything of quality?

lb

I agree. Today drones cover the news.

On the other hand, the other day I toke a look at the US budget on submarines for the next years and it looks like they are going spend even more !

deutscher40 · 07-13-13, 09:29 PM

Like most companies, they go where the money is. I have to say it's been the mod community that kept them from sinking completely. The mod community comes up with better ideas and add-ons than the programmers who wrote the original code.

02-04-13, 06:39 PM	#2
Blacklight Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,507 Downloads: 142 Uploads: 0	I still want my modern subsim. I'm VERY tired of being stuck in World War II all the time. What about developing an open source subsim that's modular, kind of like the "Orbiter" of subsims where you could just have a repository of platforms and scenery to download and put in. That way, you could probably organize a campaign in any era you would want. Even possible futures. I think that using Dangerous Waters as a model for this, with all it's panels of controls and interface would be an excellent control interface to emulate. It's simple and works efficiently. We would also want a mission editor (of course) that's similar to Dangerous Waters where you can set up missions anywhere in the world with a topographical map of the earth in it as well as the ability to scrip campaigns that could last years similar to Silent Hunter III and IV. I don't think Fancy Fancy graphics would even be needed. I'm perfectly fine with Dangerous Waters-like graphics, maybe with an upgrade to bring them in line to where SHIII is. There's a reason I'm saying this. We would want this subsim to be playable by as many people as possible because, frankly, our fan base is so small, that we need every person we can get. Not everyone is going to have the latest and greatest video cards. So this sim should be made to run on older systems as well as new ones. This will maximize the number of people who can play it. __________________ Be my friend or be a mushroom cloud. "I am coming at you. You will explode in a couple of minutes !"

03-11-13, 10:31 AM	#4
drupps Watch Join Date: May 2007 Location: Chicago Posts: 15 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	Niche genres It seems like most game publishers and developers are doing the DLC think lately. I think the best idea for a niche genre especially is to release the game after a prolonged beta. And add new ships, campaigns, etc to further the development and patches for the product. I realize this means more cost to the users, but I think it keeps interest and could in fact create interest to people that might not have played a game in the genre. Also Ubisoft needs to get the game on Steam, Origins, all the digital distribution services. I use Steam and have bought many games through that that I probably wouldn't have through retail or digitally on their website.

04-04-13, 12:39 PM	#6
JagdPanzer44 Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 13 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	Nope I'm not optimistic at all about the future of these sims. If we were still in the days of independent studios putting out quality games - I might have some hope; but in this day of a handful of bloated corporate entities owning everything, I'd say we've seen the last of any presentable submarine simulations. And I'd rather Ubi stay out of the equation altogether - they've done enough damage. Selling a rough framework of a game at full price and then expecting a small niche of modders to spend the next 2 years making it playable is insulting. Fool me once, shame on Ubi, fool me two or three times...well... Our only salvation would be some small company out of nowhere surprising us with a great, working sub-sim that would set a new standard. But realistically, I don't see that happening. Last edited by JagdPanzer44; 04-04-13 at 01:12 PM.

04-05-13, 04:31 AM	#7
ruky00 Bilge Rat Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 0	Developing a new game I am not native English so excuse me if it is difficult to understand some parts. I found this thread really interesting, and looks like some people think that developing a new game should be a good option, you know, hire some developers and start building the code. Let me tell you what's my opinion about that. Of course, I may be wrong, probably I am wrong but some may feel it useful. First a bit of background. I always wanted to play a game which no one seems to be interested into developing. speaking with my friends/colleagues about it they told me that now days with plenty of game engines available it is an easy task, so I decided to code my dreamed game my self. My programing experience dated from 15 years ago, using the old Turbo C or Turbo Pascal on MSDOS when I was a student, after that I just coded small bash/perl scripts to help in my day work. No knowledge of OOP, or modern languages/IDEs ... First I decided which language should I use, finally I decided python due everybody said it is easy. Then I tried some free game engines, after some trials I chose a big and well documented engine which seemed ideal for my proposals. Then I sit on my chair and started to code, but after a while I realized that game building is not about programing, first and foremost you need to desing the game, define its rules, its parts, its dynamics ... Led me try to explain with an example. I am a big fan of UFO game, there is a open source project that is coding a new engine for it [openXcom]. A gamer can play the original one, or the new project and he will not appreciate any differences, indeed if you don't tell him he will think that he is playing the same game. Yep, the same game but they don't share a single line of the code. So the game is above the code/engine used, now days you can implement it with a great number of technologies, some will need more resources other less but if the game is not well designed it doesn't matter the technology used, it will be a fiasco. In my humble opinion, if the community wants to build their own subsim, they need good game designers, and there is no need of good coding skills or technology knowledge from the start, rather than, a well though game mechanics is far more important. When you have the game designed and began to code it, no matter which technology was finally chosen, you realize that a good code doesn't means a great game. Yep, it seems obvious but some times the quantity and quality of work outside of coding doesn't seems well pondered. It is not just good quality artwork even the gamer orders flow needs to be work with well designed user interface, which its not easy. That's the reason why most open source games looks so awful, yep there is plenty of talented developers which can code by free, but its hard to join them with talented 3D designers, music mens, ... A community developed game would be really nice, but rather than go en hire developers opening a wiki to start a brain storming ideas for the game may be better. If some one has read all the brick, thank you for you patience with an old guy.

06-02-13, 12:56 PM	#10
LoBlo Subsim Diehard Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas! Posts: 971 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 3	Maybe its a generational thing. WWII is becoming farther and farther away in history and modern submarines don't have the mystique of cold-war warriors they once have. How's a up and coming young gamer community even exposed to the concept of submarine warfare nowadays? Outside of Ubisoft, who else is making anything of quality? lb __________________ "Seek not to offend or annoy... only to speak the truth"-a wise man

04-03-13, 10:15 AM	#5
thefinnishguy Swabbie Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Espoo, Finland Posts: 5 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	In my opinion, it would be great with a new subsim about the Cold War, many people are already tired with WW2 subsims. Or maybe an early Cold War sim with diesel subs like the Whiskey and Barbel? Like a 1960's online-based open-source sim ?

04-17-13, 02:16 PM	#8
Miki_Mundi Swabbie Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 8 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I love this type of game. As to the future of games like it? Well, tbh, I think that todays generation of young gamers want instant gratification, easy kills, cheats and awesome firepower. Games like Silent Hunter unfortunately do not fit into this demographic, requiring skill, routine and patience to excel effectively. To move forward, this genre would need to appeal to both demographics and essentially widen the market. To appeal to the first SUBset [pardon the pun] it would possibly have to take the form of an arcadey open world format, whereby you have a semi-linear storyline with main missions,a protagonist, ally characters, enemies and an arch nemisis. Side missions would fill out the game and various "power ups" not related to realism would fulfill the urge of those who feel the necessity to disproportionally wipe everything out of existance. To appeal to the purist however, the game would need a slightly different tone, still open world play but with the emphasis on realism with attentive graphics and an immersive (should I say SUBmersive for pun no.2!) environment. It wouldn't change too much from Silent Hunter 3 (not played other versions) in the fact that micro management of several details such as crew, weapons, fatigue, damage etc but with definate improvements related to modern computer hardware to bring it into the 21st century. The possibility of a choice of theatres from WW2 until present day could appeal with some interesting what if scenarios. The ability to create your own story is paramount here. Needless to say, online gaming is also an important part of anygame in this current day and age and would probably appeal to both the gamers and the purist. Anyway, just my two penneth worth...

04-23-13, 07:07 PM	#9
desertstriker Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2012 Location: mod soup bar and grill Posts: 1,756 Downloads: 998 Uploads: 0	as much as it pains me to say it the subsim genre is more than likely dead. no corporation will want to pump money in the development of something that only 5-10% of the gaming community will consider buying and of that only 2-5% will accualy buy. it will probably end in us poor chaps making our own games and even then we will slowly die away because every few people get recruited to the subsim genre and of those are the survivors who are not immediately turned off by games like SH5. People just don't seem to have the respect for the games and what they stand for. like today many people don't hear about the battle of the atlantic they hear more about the land battles than the fear of Uboats.

06-03-13, 05:07 AM	#12
Julhelm Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Icy North Posts: 690 Downloads: 189 Uploads: 0	That's not World of Warships. It looks like Battlestations Pacific.

07-13-13, 09:29 PM	#15
deutscher40 Bilge Rat Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1 Downloads: 48 Uploads: 0	Like most companies, they go where the money is. I have to say it's been the mod community that kept them from sinking completely. The mod community comes up with better ideas and add-ons than the programmers who wrote the original code.