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Old 02-18-17, 03:24 PM   #16
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But we do not have any inflation. Or we do have now, around 1 percent or 1.7, but only recently, not in the last decade.
Interest is so low, the banks almost pay you for lending mony from them. Paying back our house, currently 3 percent interest and the rest is real acquittance. We are not rich but we never had it better financially. Some refugees nearby, two have been working in our compoany for practice, one of them wants to become an electrician, the other will probaboy be going back and organise help for Sudan from here.

And it is of cause all so messy and bad here in Germany, nothing to eat and the people suffer from all those terrorist attacks.
Not me though, but i am apparently living somewhere else.
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Old 02-18-17, 05:13 PM   #17
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You really believe that superficial simplicty called "official inflation" statistics, eh? Please tell me you don't.

You increase the ammount of money in circulation day in day out, and you have no inflation. Sure. With every credit taken by somebody, banks created new "money" from nothing. But that is no inflation. Sure. The ECB accepting even the most toxic of waste papers as securities, giving out new money for them in return. But no inflation. Sure.

What you have, is clever abuse of statistics and suggestive catch phrases to hide the inflation. What you have, is delay of insolvency.

Its been lioke this excessively since the past coupld of years. But in principle it has been like this since decades. The D-Mark had lost over 80% of its buying power when it was replaced by the Euro - so much for "stable currency". The Dollar today has I think less than 2% of the buying power it had at the end of the civil war. But it is called a solid currency.

Stop believe the textbook propaganda. I instead recommend to you Roland Baader: the books Geldsozialismus, Kreide für den Wolf, Die betrogene Generation, or Christoph Braunschweig: Wohlfahrtsstaat - Leb Wohl!, Die demokratische Krankheit; or Weik & Friedrich: Der größte Raubzug der Geschichte, or Detlef Schlichter: Das Ende des Scheins, and of course anything by Alfred Hayek or Ludwig von Mises.

Its nice you pay little interest rates. But if you think the money in general has more value because of that and that there is no damage down to the whole system, then you just do not look far enough. Look beyond your garden's close horizon. BTW, as long as a single rate sitll is left, it is not your house, but the bank's house. You signed that at the vey beginning of it all.

Artifically talked down interest rates so that people can buy houses who actually could not afford it - wasn't that at the beginning of the mortgage crisis in the US 15 years ago? If money would be so valuable as you say that there is no inflation - how comes that the stiockmarket is overheated (or do you believe the real economy has grown in real absolute worth by several factors within the past 15 years...? )

You could as well say there is no manipulation of the gold price. If the gold price would not be manipulated and would be allowed to move freely, it would be somehwhere between 2500 and 4000 by now, I estimate. If not even higher. Beeing seen as the clasiscal alarmometer, politics, governments and central banks cannot afford to let the gold price freely express the devaluation of paper money, it would bring the globe to a total and complete collapse immediately. The illusion must be supported. No. Matter. What.

QE - Quantitative Easing - is nothing else but artificially boosted inflation.

“Die Politik kann die ökonomischen Gesetze nicht außer Kraft setzen, aber sie kann so tun, als ob sie dazu in der Lage wäre. Leider dauert es eine ganze Weile, bis diese Täuschung ihre jeweils desaströsen Wirkungen voll entfaltet und damit offensichtlich wird. Bis dahin ist dann eine neue Generation an Wählern herangewachsen, der man den Bären vom Primat der Politik erneut aufbinden kann.” - Roland Baader.
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Old 02-18-17, 05:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon View Post


Corrected that for you.
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Old 02-18-17, 05:32 PM   #19
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In German, and thus mainly for Catfish, but also for anyone who can understand written German:

Link - "Inflation - The papery suicide"

Quote:
Von Lenin, der gewiss etwas von Revolution und Umsturz verstanden hat, soll der Satz stammen: „Wer die kapitalistische Gesellschaft zerstören will, muss ihr Geld zerstören.“ Skurrilerweise hat Lord Keynes das sicherste Mittel hierzu genannt, nämlich die Inflation.
What to learn from this? When within one or two generations only, things and stuff start to cost 30, 40, 50, 60 times (not percent, but factors!) as much than before, then you have inflation, and there is no use in trying to talk of "stable currencies".
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Old 02-18-17, 05:37 PM   #20
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And here is the translation I was looking for, for a quote by Mises:

"
There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved."

And more - sorry, cannot find it in English:

"
Diese erste Phase des inflationären Prozesses kann viele Jahre andauern. In dieser Zeit haben sich die Preise vieler Güter und Dienstleistungen noch nicht den veränderten Geldverhältnissen angepasst. Einige Menschen im Land haben immer noch nicht erkannt, dass sich hier eine Preisrevolution vollzieht, die letztendlich zu einem deutlichen Ansteigen aller Preise führen wird, obgleich die unterschiedlichen Waren und Dienstleistungen nicht im gleichen Ausmaß steigen werden. Diese Menschen sind nun immer noch im Glauben, die Preise würden eines Tages auch wieder sinken. Im Warten auf diesen Tag schränken Sie ihr Kaufverhalten ein, wodurch ihre Geldbestände gleichzeitig anwachsen. Solange die öffentliche Meinung noch von solchen Vorstellungen geprägt ist, ist es noch nicht zu spät für die Regierung. Noch kann sie ihre inflationäre Politik aufgeben.

Doch dann wachen die Massen schließlich auf. Plötzlich wird ihnen klar, dass bewusst und vorsätzlich Inflationspolitik betrieben wird und dass sie kein Ende finden wird. Es kommt zum Zusammenbruch. Die Zeit der Katastrophenhausse ist gekommen. Jetzt ist jeder darauf bedacht, sein Geld schleunigst gegen "reale“ Güter einzutauschen, ganz gleich, ob er diese braucht oder nicht und ganz gleich, wie viel Geld er für sie bezahlen muss. Innerhalb sehr kurzer Zeit, innerhalb weniger Wochen oder gar Tage, werden die Dinge, die zuvor als Geld genutzt wurden, nicht mehr als Tauschmittel eingesetzt. Sie werden zu Altpapier, gegen das keiner mehr etwas eintauschen möchte."

This is not any difficult to understand at all. Its basic, profound, and simple.
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Old 02-18-17, 06:05 PM   #21
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Tja, da musste die Banken abschaffen.
Viel Glück.

"... dann wachen "die Massen" auf? Echt? Wann sind denn die Massen das letzte Mal aufgewacht? Und was genau soll dann passieren? Wie gesagt, der Mensch lebt 70 Jahre, stirbt, und die Jungen wiederholen alle Fehler. Menschen sind dumm. Und wenn sie gerade mal eine Ahnung von der Realität bekommen, sind sie alt und niemand hört auf sie.

Das ist immer ein Zyklus, irgendwann kommt ein Crash, und dann eine Währungsreform. Immer wieder ad infinitum, solange wir dem goldenen Kalb des Kapitalismus huldigen. Denn Inflation ist die Basis für das Ganze.
Oder zeig mir wie der Kapitalismus ohne Banken funktioniert.
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Old 02-18-17, 06:33 PM   #22
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Lets stick to Engliush, when possible, I gave the German quoted articles only because I did not find translations of them.

Capitalism doe snot need banks necessarily. Capitalism needs

- free markets that do not give you what you desire btu what xyiu can afford,

- "Warengeld" - a money of inherent material value, that gets its agreed value just by market interaction like any other good or commodity, and that state and politicians cannot reset at will and that they cannot inflate in total volume as they like, reaöl opneya IS just any commodity/good that isn suitable to serve as a saving format for value you do not want to spend immediately;

- and enough insight - as classical national economist,the ancestors of today's so-called Austrians had! - to see that while capitalism has an inherent drive toewards forming monoplism but that this monopilsm must be resisted to and must be prevfente djust like life itself has an inherent drive towards age and death, biut craves for trying to prevent dying as long as it can.

The misery starts when politicians promises miracles and wealth raining from heaven in order to get elected, and their private money does not suffice to pay for them. Then they steal it from the others, or the devalue the existing money by inflating its ammounts. The ruin evertyhing and everyone, just for their career. "Wählerbestechungsdemokratie" - voter bribery democracy.

What there is today - IS NO MONEY. It is a a poor surrogate for money. A money that has no inherent vlaue, IS NO MONEY. Just any token. Market must decide what gets accepted as money,a dn what money'S value is. And market must do that alone and unhindered by politicians.

Capitalism in principle needs no banks. Just free trade and free bartering. the rule of law and reason and reliability. Treaties who cannot be sued for when the yget violated. Even more so, since capitalists know that the term "capital" goes far beyond the reference to currency tokens only. Of all forms of capital there are, forged money, Parker's Monopoly notes, is the least important one!

Aim your criticsm at monopolism, and you have my support. But you aim it the wrong target, the cure instead: capitalism. That is absurd.

Thge biggest monopolist, btw, is the state.

You want co control politicians and want to stop them before they have ruined it once again? Then you have to shoot them dead whenver they reach with their hands out for controlling, minting, defining the value of money. Its the worst poltical crime possible to do so, and the key to total control and absol,ute power: controlling the mints. Everybody should be allowed to run a mint if he wants, and no monopolies whatever should ever be accepted. Money must be a market function, never a political agenda.
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Old 02-18-17, 07:31 PM   #23
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Nothing has 'inherent value'. The utility anything has depends entirely on circumstance.
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Old 02-19-17, 05:42 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJWest View Post
Nothing has 'inherent value'. The utility anything has depends entirely on circumstance.
Sets of preferences are subjective and individual, yes.
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Old 02-19-17, 10:18 AM   #25
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Quote:
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Nothing has 'inherent value'. The utility anything has depends entirely on circumstance.
Splitting hairs, the most favourite distracting tactics. Okay, here you get it:

inherent values get attributed by the negotiations of market participants, but the differnce is that they agree on the material value they attribute to ann item or token, may it be a sack of rice or a rare bird'S colourful feather or an ounce of gold. The maket decides these items' value, and that si their inhgerent value. With a bank note, it is different, you use bank notes for bartering not on basis of their material inherent vlaue - which is just the paper and the ink, so a million dollar note still would be worth just pennies in inherent value. The bank note nevertheless gets dealt with as if it had the material value printed on it.

But that is like an ounce of gold in simply bar format, or an ounce of gold minted in a medal or coin. For the coin, you would always pay a little bit more, but when you sell it back to the trader, he nevertheless will often just pay you back the current material value of th gold it contains - that is the inherent value of that 1 ounce of gold. Everything becond that is just a sentimental value. And sentimental valued items are bad items for building reserves and secure your savings in.

In the end, bank notes are no valuable items in themselves, they are FIAT money only, fiat from Latin: "it will be, it shall become". It means money, or value one hopes hat will materialise, so to speak, while it is no value in is current form. In fact a bank note is just a written certificate of debt, which would be okay if the value of the note that is printed on it would equal a security stored in the safe of the bank. You have one dollarnote, becasue it is easier to handle and smaller in weight, but for it you have a security stored at the bajk that equals this one dollar, may it be precious metla or anything else. It is like the ticket you get when you hand over your coat while visiting the opera - you have that ticket, and they have the coat. Yo give back the ticket, and you get back the coat.

Not with the money today! If you demand all money notes tobe turned into material assets again, the system would collapse after less than 1% of the paper money being exchnaged for gold, silver, palladium or whatever they had "in stock".

Two forms of credit there are, the one is reasonable and economically reliable, stable, the other paves the road to disaster. First, there is credit that bases on somebody else not consuming something, and what he saved by not consuming it himself, he lends to somebody. No dysbalance between real world assets and bilance credit in the books until here, everything is fine, you get a coat back when you hand over the ticket. The other form of credit is to hand out notes of debtness (=bank notes) for which no consumer items were saved, you effectively hand out these leafs of paper without them being backed by any securities. And this is lethal for every financial system and economy in the end, always, unavoidably. And this is what they do since over 100 years, excessively, and more and more excessively so. You do n ot get a coat when handing over your ticket, becasue nobody has handed them in a coat as a security in the first. There is no coat you could get.

We cannot escape the consequences of this stupidity. Some fall earlier than others, the sequences of players falling may vary a bit - but in the end falling they all will.


There is no coat you could get, I said above. Its like this with over 99% of the money the banks are doing business with currently!

We wanted to be so sly, we considered ourselves to be so clever with all these super-sly and super-clever "financial products", with all these ways of delaying to calculate the totals and to hide the lack of securities. We are so much at ease with our well-thought out mechnaisms and the big locks on th doors of the safe.

The problem just is: this safe is empty. Your claim for your share of its content, gets you nothing. And all this becasue we beleive ruthless poltical basters telling us that we could endlessly live beyind our means and spend more than we can afford, and that money can be multiplied infinitely by the magic of alchemy. But money MUST be limited in total, global availability, only then it can have any inherent value. Without inherent, market-negotiated value, without money being an ordnary trading good like all others, it is no money, but fraud and theft.

The day the huge masses realise this, is the day when war breaks out in Europe's streets.

Okay. Now I just wait for somebody reminding us of that "you cannot eat gold"; or something different that nevertheless is as clever. For example "Try to buy a leaf of bread with your 1 ounce gold bar". Its pointless remarks like these that really make my day.
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Old 02-19-17, 12:18 PM   #26
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No, I am not 'splitting hairs'. Gold has value because people decide it has. So does currency, 'fiat' or otherwise. There is nothing inherent about value in either. 'Value' is a social construct, not a physical property, as your own attempts to define the value make clear. You are simply misusing the word. It doesn't mean what you are trying to make it mean. As for the rest of your arguments, I am no great fan of the capitalist system myself, so I have no need to defend it, beyond suggesting that solutions to the many inequties it brings are unlikely to be found through the accumulation of shiny rocks.
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Old 02-19-17, 02:36 PM   #27
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1200 dollars in physical gold (currently around 1 ounce), is not the same like a stash of 1200 1-dollar notes. Either you eat a real pie, then you can enjoy it, or you just imagine to eat a pie whose taste and sweetness and dough only exists in your imagination . But don't tell both were the same, the real thing and the imagined thing. I prefer the real pie every time, and if you think your fanatsy eases your appetite, then trade me your material pie so that that burden is off your shoulders, and I eat the rela thing then and tell you how sweet it tastes - then we both have what we wanted to get: me the pie, and you your imagine. - Lefties and capitalism-haters dont like that, I know. Still, market laws are behaving like natural laws a bit - they never bow to ideology or wishful thinking. If you violate them, you cannot avoid forever the consequences of doing so - they find you sooner or later. Nothing ever gets forgotten, not a single taler gets lost. The debts will be paid for down to the last Taler - and often the currency then is pain and suffering and national disaster.
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Old 02-19-17, 03:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
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1200 dollars in physical gold (currently around 1 ounce), is not the same like a stash of 1200 1-dollar notes. Either you eat a real pie, then you can enjoy it, or you just imagine to eat a pie whose taste and sweetness and dough only exists in your imagination . But don't tell both were the same, the real thing and the imagined thing. I prefer the real pie every time, and if you think your fanatsy eases your appetite, then trade me your material pie so that that burden is off your shoulders, and I eat the rela thing then and tell you how sweet it tastes - then we both have what we wanted to get: me the pie, and you your imagine. - Lefties and capitalism-haters dont like that, I know. Still, market laws are behaving like natural laws a bit - they never bow to ideology or wishful thinking. If you violate them, you cannot avoid forever the consequences of doing so - they find you sooner or later. Nothing ever gets forgotten, not a single taler gets lost. The debts will be paid for down to the last Taler - and often the currency then is pain and suffering and national disaster.
Sorry, how does me pointing out that your own arguments demonstrate that the value of gold is a social construct constitute a 'fantasy'?

As for the rest, I think we are all familiar with your chicken little obsessions and your belief that failure to follow the ludicrous tenets of the von Mises cult will lead to the imminent collapse of civilisation. As a demonstration of faith, perhaps such obsessiveness deserves applause, but as evidence of critical thinking from someone who appears to have a little historical knowledge, it is risible. And no, there is nothing remotely 'natural' about the market. People create it. People break it. And the natural world doesn't give two hoots either way.
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Old 02-19-17, 06:12 PM   #29
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Any opinions regarding the security conference?
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Old 02-19-17, 06:20 PM   #30
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We simply do an experiment. You take your 100 paper dollars, and I take my 3 grams of physical gold, and then we head into a failed state with persecution, black market and a currency that is hyperinflating 200% every day and essentially is broken down. And then we see who can barter with what he has - you with your 100 paper tokens that after one hour already have lost significant value again and does so every minute and every hour coming, or me with my three grams of gold. I am extremely confident that my bucket will be several times as full than yours every time we do this.

I have 10 thousand years of history of mankind and gold and bartering on my side. You have 800 and something years of history of failing paper money experiments - every single one of them! - on yours. When we get on the black market, we soon find out who finds somebody to barter with, and who get something and who gets nothing. Even if the price of gold can rise and drop widely - SOMETHING you always get for it. You cannot say the same about banknotes, as history has already proven many times. And then even you will know what the difference between banknotes without and physical items with inherent market value is. There is a reason why states that want to enforce the use of their forged money need to prohibit rivalling physical tokens with intrinsic, inherent value. Man's preferences here are very clear - since centuries.

Its getting tiresome to explain these very same fundamentals, these very same essential basic fundamentals time and again. And when you say you dislike capitalism anyway, then it is especially hopeless anyway. But your socialist ways (since the opposite of capitalism is planned economy, there is no third option) will never work - and the simple reason is that man simply is not what socialism would like him to be, and asking a life form constantly to be somethign different than what it is, is against its nature and thus will never succeed over time. And pressure to enforce complainac eof this kind just will create violence in self-defence.
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