Here we go again-Ukraine once again - Page 384

Jimbuna · 08-20-22, 06:06 AM

Oh, I don't think I will

mapuc · 08-20-22, 06:30 AM

If I only knew the title of the thread, then I could find the finest explanation on Natos Article 5. Since I can't I have to take it from memory.

An attack on a Nato country activate article 5 the musketeer oath all for one and one for all.

Can we rely on this oath.. No there will be members states who will try to downgrade the effect of an attack on another member.
My country(think he wrote Germany)would do anything to downgrade the situation..

Wish I could remember every word 'cause it was 100 % Correct what he wrote.

This article 5 will die-Nato will come to the conclusion-All for one-None for all.

Not meaning that there ain't member state who will honour this article and send help-But mostly some member states Parliament will do anything to downgrade the situation.

Markus

Reece · 08-20-22, 06:36 AM

That would make the whole idea of NATO redundant!!

Individually each country would be doomed against an aggressor such as Russia, it is only when all stick together that makes the pact viable/winnable.

mapuc · 08-20-22, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reece

That would make the whole idea of NATO redundant!!

Individually each country would be doomed against an aggressor such as Russia, it is only when all stick together that makes the pact viable/winnable.

I'm convince in the case with this Nuclear powerplant in Ukraine-If there should be a huge leak..some member state would try to point some of the guilt on Ukraine and thereby trying to downgrade the seriousness in Russia's attack on this powerplant

I hope I'm wrong on all this.

Edit
Somehow I missed Skybirds first answer on this page
"Really? Will they...?

Wait, watch and be surprised.
"
End edit

Markus

mapuc · 08-20-22, 07:10 AM

Here's a quick summary of the latest developments in Ukraine:

The base of Russia's Black Sea fleet in annexed Crimea has reportedly come under further drone attack. Large smoke clouds have been filmed arising from the area of Sevastopol that is home to Russia's naval headquarters

The Russian-installed leader of the occupied city confirmed a Ukrainian drone had been shot down over the area, and said no one was hurt

It follows a series of attacks against Russian military targets in the peninsula, which Russia annexed from Ukraine in 2014, in recent days and weeks

Meanwhile, a visit by international inspectors could help restore the safety of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant, Ukrainian President Volodymr Zelensky has said

Markus

Skybird · 08-20-22, 08:25 AM

NATO treaty, article 5, original text:

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defense recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

That formulation leaves plenty of flexibility for member states qwhetehr they agree with a situaiton of an attack on one member, and if so, in what way they react. It is left to ever ymamber sttae to fight, to send military aid, or to react in any other way - or not to react at all.

Its always implied that article 5, if triggered, means an automatic military committment of all member states for other member states. This impression is wanted - but it is wrong. The critical legal formulations are two-fold: 1. "shall be considered" - that is not the same as "must/will be considered", its juristic and treaty langauge haisplitting but leaves the wanted escape hatch open; and 2. "action as it deems necessary", which in the context refers not to the alliance as a whole or to its institutional control board to decide, but refers to each any every member state to individually assess what it deems necessary.

Note that the UN is also given a word in all this. Without its recognition of a justified case for troiggering artiocle 5, it cannot be activated.

You maybe ignore all this, thinking its all irrelevant hairsplitting. But this is a legal text, and you can bet your life on that not a single sentence and word was chosen by random, or carelessly.

These are not just my personal conclusions, but I just repeat what experts on the matter on various occasions have said or written.

mapuc · 08-20-22, 08:36 AM

Hope I'm wrong.

The Danish politicians about a majority will try to downgrade the situation-There will be a massive discussion in the Danish Parliament and among the civilian ending with a withdrawal from Article 5.

Hope I'm wrong, that Denmark will stand op for it's - One for all principal.

Markus

Skybird · 08-20-22, 08:40 AM

Everybody raising his hand who thinks European states are 1. willing, and 2. economically and 3. militarily capable to declare war on Russia and start to war-fighting it, everywhere.

Now...?

Dargo · 08-20-22, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Really? Will they...?

Wait, watch and be surprised.

British MP Ellwood can say what he wants don't know his party and certainly other countries will listen to any warmonger that desperately need votes. As you can see at the satellite images of the nuclear plant, there is no damage Putin blackmails, again let us not be played here.

Dargo · 08-20-22, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

Hope I'm wrong.

The Danish politicians about a majority will try to downgrade the situation-There will be a massive discussion in the Danish Parliament and among the civilian ending with a withdrawal from Article 5.

Hope I'm wrong, that Denmark will stand op for it's - One for all principal.

Markus

And that is a good thing Parliaments needs to decide in a democracy not a couple of hawks decide the hawks in Russia are in power and it has not a politburo like in the USSR to remove the hawks I rather live in a country that decide by the will of all than in Russia by the will of the few.

Dargo · 08-20-22, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Everybody raising his hand who thinks European states are 1. willing, and 2. economically and 3. militarily capable to declare war on Russia and start to war-fighting it, everywhere.

Now...?

No European state or the US will consider this proposal what are you thinking will happen I know mutual destruction will happen I never raise my hand for that.

Jimbuna · 08-20-22, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Everybody raising his hand who thinks European states are 1. willing, and 2. economically and 3. militarily capable to declare war on Russia and start to war-fighting it, everywhere.

Now...?

Jimbuna · 08-20-22, 12:31 PM

Drone attack targets Russian Black Sea fleet in Crimea

Russian forces in Crimea have been targeted by a fresh drone strike.

The Russian-appointed regional leader said a Ukrainian drone targeting Russia's Black Sea fleet in the city of Sevastopol was shot down on Saturday.

It follows a string of attacks on Russian forces and installations in the annexed peninsula this month.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62618538

The BBC have been a tad slow of late.

Jimbuna · 08-20-22, 12:35 PM

Quote:

The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation accused Ukraine of using chemical poisonous substances against Russian servicemen and civilians.

The ministry said that Russian military personnel who were "performing tasks" near the village of Vasylivka in Zaporizhzhia Region were allegedly taken to a military hospital with signs of severe poisoning, and a toxic substance, botulinum toxin type B, was detected in their bodies.

"On the fact of chemical terrorism sanctioned by the Zelensky regime, the Russian Federation is preparing supporting documents with the results of the analyses conducted," the Defense Ministry said in a statement.

They add that there is an additional investigation into the poisoning with "military toxic substances" of the head of the provisional administration of the Kherson region, Vladimir Saldo, given the evidence of "state terrorism of the Kyiv regime". Source: https://censor.net/en/n3362073

"Danger, Will Robinson!"

Dargo · 08-20-22, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Drone attack targets Russian Black Sea fleet in Crimea

Russian forces in Crimea have been targeted by a fresh drone strike.

The Russian-appointed regional leader said a Ukrainian drone targeting Russia's Black Sea fleet in the city of Sevastopol was shot down on Saturday.

It follows a string of attacks on Russian forces and installations in the annexed peninsula this month.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62618538

The BBC have been a tad slow of late.

Others are late also, in general Ukraine is no news anymore for the mayor media.

08-20-22, 06:06 AM	#5746
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,344 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Oh, I don't think I will __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

08-20-22, 06:30 AM	#5747
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,956 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	If I only knew the title of the thread, then I could find the finest explanation on Natos Article 5. Since I can't I have to take it from memory. An attack on a Nato country activate article 5 the musketeer oath all for one and one for all. Can we rely on this oath.. No there will be members states who will try to downgrade the effect of an attack on another member. My country(think he wrote Germany)would do anything to downgrade the situation.. Wish I could remember every word 'cause it was 100 % Correct what he wrote. This article 5 will die-Nato will come to the conclusion-All for one-None for all. Not meaning that there ain't member state who will honour this article and send help-But mostly some member states Parliament will do anything to downgrade the situation. Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

08-20-22, 06:36 AM	#5748
Reece CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Down Under Posts: 32,796 Downloads: 171 Uploads: 0	That would make the whole idea of NATO redundant!! Individually each country would be doomed against an aggressor such as Russia, it is only when all stick together that makes the pact viable/winnable. __________________ *Sub captains go down with their ship!*

08-20-22, 07:10 AM	#5750
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,956 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Here's a quick summary of the latest developments in Ukraine: The base of Russia's Black Sea fleet in annexed Crimea has reportedly come under further drone attack. Large smoke clouds have been filmed arising from the area of Sevastopol that is home to Russia's naval headquarters The Russian-installed leader of the occupied city confirmed a Ukrainian drone had been shot down over the area, and said no one was hurt It follows a series of attacks against Russian military targets in the peninsula, which Russia annexed from Ukraine in 2014, in recent days and weeks Meanwhile, a visit by international inspectors could help restore the safety of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant, Ukrainian President Volodymr Zelensky has said Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

08-20-22, 08:25 AM	#5751
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,560 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	NATO treaty, article 5, original text: The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defense recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. That formulation leaves plenty of flexibility for member states qwhetehr they agree with a situaiton of an attack on one member, and if so, in what way they react. It is left to ever ymamber sttae to fight, to send military aid, or to react in any other way - or not to react at all. Its always implied that article 5, if triggered, means an automatic military committment of all member states for other member states. This impression is wanted - but it is wrong. The critical legal formulations are two-fold: 1. "shall be considered" - that is not the same as "must/will be considered", its juristic and treaty langauge haisplitting but leaves the wanted escape hatch open; and 2. "action as it deems necessary", which in the context refers not to the alliance as a whole or to its institutional control board to decide, but refers to each any every member state to individually assess what it deems necessary. Note that the UN is also given a word in all this. Without its recognition of a justified case for troiggering artiocle 5, it cannot be activated. You maybe ignore all this, thinking its all irrelevant hairsplitting. But this is a legal text, and you can bet your life on that not a single sentence and word was chosen by random, or carelessly. These are not just my personal conclusions, but I just repeat what experts on the matter on various occasions have said or written. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 08-20-22 at 08:35 AM.

08-20-22, 08:36 AM	#5752
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,956 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Hope I'm wrong. The Danish politicians about a majority will try to downgrade the situation-There will be a massive discussion in the Danish Parliament and among the civilian ending with a withdrawal from Article 5. Hope I'm wrong, that Denmark will stand op for it's - One for all principal. Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

08-20-22, 08:40 AM	#5753
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,560 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Everybody raising his hand who thinks European states are 1. willing, and 2. economically and 3. militarily capable to declare war on Russia and start to war-fighting it, everywhere. Now...? __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-20-22, 12:31 PM	#5758
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,344 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Drone attack targets Russian Black Sea fleet in Crimea Russian forces in Crimea have been targeted by a fresh drone strike. The Russian-appointed regional leader said a Ukrainian drone targeting Russia's Black Sea fleet in the city of Sevastopol was shot down on Saturday. It follows a string of attacks on Russian forces and installations in the annexed peninsula this month. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62618538 The BBC have been a tad slow of late. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)