The four bearings method - Page 4

karamazovnew · 07-25-10, 05:50 PM

Cool idea. But we need to maintain course and speed for the second interval too (between 2'd and 3'd bearings).

After that the best thing I guess would be to simply stop the boat

Kuikueg · 07-26-10, 03:31 AM

Yesterday I was thicker than usual and so I have to correct myself again: if you keep speed and course, the red line becomes the fourth bearing. So Makman was absolutely right.

About the simplification of procedure, for it to work you need to keep speed and course for the three first bearings, otherwise the red line won't pass through your protracted fourth position, right?

makman94 · 07-26-10, 06:50 AM

yes Kuikueg and Kara ,you are both right! we have to keep speed and course for the second interval too ! my bad..

makman94 · 10-02-10, 09:02 AM

hello to all,

a new video (HD) made by me is uploaded on youtube showing again this excellent method that Kuikueg shared with us !

in this video ,you can also see how to do the ''job'' with ONLY FOUR bearings (instead of five that are showing at Kuikueg's notes or to my previous video.of course,he is mentioning that four are enough...now you will see how it is done)

once , again ...i want to thank Kuikueg for the VERY BEST method !

Zedi · 10-03-10, 10:19 AM

Makman, can you explain me what vent wrong in this case:

The blue line should be the correct bearing of the target acording to this method, but somehow. the red line was the true bearing. Somethimes this method work, but somethimes.. is just wrong and I can't figure out why. The time interval between bearing measurement is 10 minutes. I just can't explain how come the final path was exactly the opposite to the calculated one.

Can you mod your nav map tools to be available for sh5 too? I so miss some pro tools for drawing on map.. right now I do my math on paper, it realistic but also annoying :/

makman94 · 10-04-10, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum

Makman, can you explain me what vent wrong in this case:

The blue line should be the correct bearing of the target acording to this method, but somehow. the red line was the true bearing. Somethimes this method work, but somethimes.. is just wrong and I can't figure out why. The time interval between bearing measurement is 10 minutes. I just can't explain how come the final path was exactly the opposite to the calculated one.

Can you mod your nav map tools to be available for sh5 too? I so miss some pro tools for drawing on map.. right now I do my math on paper, it realistic but also annoying :/

hi Magnum,

at your pic is showing that you are using the method with the stopped u-boat .
you have made a lot of mistakes and also your drawings are not accurate (accuracy at drawings is a critical part ) and seem very ''fast made''.remember, with methods like this one...you have to be patient .
before i start telling you the mistakes ,have in mind that bearings a ,b , c and the last one (the one from point A2 )must be very accurate (the more accurate they are ...the more accurate your solution will be)

first, the point G must be in the middle of A1P1 and at your pic it is not .

second , the line Gg must be parallel to bearing c and at your pic it is not (yea ,i know that it seem to be so but if you look closer it is not )

these two mistakes are leading you to the next mistake which is that P1P2 is not equal to P2P3 .these two must be equal in order to proceed so you should have stop here.the procedure have allready failed.

all these ,plus the possible not accurate bearings a,b,c (don't be based on your SO ,use the sonar bearing lines) are giving you the wrong result.

next mistake is that the point P4 is not placed correctly . the P4 must be placed on the extension of line P1P3 that way so P1P2=P2P3=P3P4 .once you find the point P4 then you draw the ''bearing'' that is ''passing'' from it.

In my opinion,an easier way to find the point P4 (with the availiable tools we have at sh) is showing at my video.at video,the situation is for a moving u-boat but pay attention at the way i am finding the first point of ''red line'' there.
you can use the same way at your situation to find the point P4.(watch carefully the video at the part of finding the first point of red line and if you don't get it...ask me again to explain)
WARNING: DON'T ERASE THE CIRCLE THAT IS POINTED TO YOU the point P4 !! ITS RADIUS IS pointing ,also, to TARGET'S COURSE (at the situation of stopped u-boat)!! this tip will help you to draw the exact course of target once you find his exact position.

ps: i think that sh5 has allready ALL the tools(and Abd_von_Mumit gave you a mod with better graphics) exept a working ruler for measuring accurate the distances and,afaik, can't be modded at sh4 or sh5( the major issue that kept me away from sh4 and sh5--at sh5 the things are even worst with the map! )

HTH,

bye

Zedi · 10-05-10, 03:38 AM

I used a ruler on the monitor to see how wrong I was. Yeah, your right... is a difference, G should be a little bit at left, where is the second 0 from 0.0. In that case, P2 should be where is the top edge of M from KM on the "b" line. True, is a huge difference in the direction of the target, but even so, is not the real course. And going further, the readings from A2 will still hit around S4 and gives me a bigger distance than in reality.

Now I still don't understand exactly few things here. P1 is a really random location along line "a"? How far should be A2? Is there a precise time interval for bearing readings and a precise distance to travel between A1 and A2? And about the precision of these readings... in this case I had a convoy and is impossible to say that the bearing is exactly 46 and not 44 or , not to mention that the sound level was very low. I could cheat by asking the sonarman/computer, but then what the point in realistic play? Also, the sonar panel is broken, those vu meters are not working.. but let's say I have a broken sonar in reality. And I play with map contacts off, so my map is clear and I'm completely blind.

Your video is not helping me because I always stop the sub when I search for contacts. I know that the sea is not static, but these high level of physics are not implemented in the game, so is no point in keep the sub moving and also do extra math to calculate the currents and my real speed.

And regarding the tools... what I need most is a 2 ring & rotating compass so I don't need to position my ship at N or W every time I search for contacts. Also a more exact ruler that I can also rotate. For example, to read the right values for where I should mark G between A1 and P1. I could do it as I did it now, by measure it on the monitor, but is kinda hard to keep the same zoom level all the time. You guys have these tools in SH3-4, for SH5 is available only in TDW UI. As I said, right now I do all my maths on paper then I try to copy it on the navmap.. that's why most of the time I got wrong results. In booth cases, I miss the right tools. Tbh.. I would love to have such a table as it is in the game.. with a huge map and a lot of tools .. that would kill the boredom of this endless sink-refit gamestyle :P

Anyway, my biggest issue so far is the target speed. I'm using the 3.15 method and most of the time I can calculate the right speed, but not in the combat after I hit a target and the ship(s) speed change. That is the point when I go completely blind and I just estimate the speed according to what the game use so far.. 6-7 knts for evading merchant ships. This is when I miss a lot. Wonder how those guys at that time made the maths when they conducted their attacks inside a moving convoy ... at night.

makman94 · 10-05-10, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum

I used a ruler on the monitor to see how wrong I was. Yeah, your right... is a difference, G should be a little bit at left, where is the second 0 from 0.0. In that case, P2 should be where is the top edge of M from KM on the "b" line. True, is a huge difference in the direction of the target, but even so, is not the real course. And going further, the readings from A2 will still hit around S4 and gives me a bigger distance than in reality. --- i ,allready answered why you got wrong solution. the bearings a ,b, and c are very critical and if not accurate then (with combination of bad drawing) give wrong result. the S4 will not be there if you had made correct the drawings (i am assuming here that bearings a,b and c are accurate) becuase the P4 would NOT be at the position you have it now.all would be different if you have made correct drawing.
My suggestion is to use, at the start, the bearing lines .make a mod that is vanishing the ship's images on navmap when you have contacts update on. that way ,when you have the contacts update on,you will have the bearing lines BUT NOT the ship's images.
ONCE you learn to do the procedure perfect (drawings must be done at higher zoom level ) then the next step will be to turn off the bearing lines BUT HAVE IN MIND THAT WHEN YOU SWITCH OFF THE BEARING LINES YOU ARE 'ENTERING' TO A WHOLE NEW PART OF HYDROPHONE HUNTING and that is becuase of the fact that bearing lines will not be EXACTLY the real ones and this may(depending from the angle between yours and target's course) have a GREAT impact at the final solution.
To understand the ''problem''... when target is 'coming' ON you with a very small angle it will take an 'age' to have a change of ,for example, 2 degrees at bearings.a difference that your ear may not be able to 'catch' so you will have to wait more. then you will have to wait exactly one ''age'' to take the next bearing but this may be a big failure becuase target will ''pass'' and moved away (and never get it again if its a fast target).

so,what do you do ?

a workaround is to NOT start the procedure of the method when you ,firstly ,got the contact. i don't know how real captains doing it but i am almost sure that captain was ''sticked'' to sonarman ...'watching' together the BEHAVIOUR of sonar bearings .the captain is manuevering the boat ,changing always SPEED AND COURSES (thats why i strongly suggest to learn the method with the moving u-boat) until they got a somewhat FAST changings at sonar bearings (this will make you to use smaller time intervals once its time to start the method's procedure) .not an easy task,experience is your 'friend' here and need some luck too . wrong decisions at courses or speeds and target will be lost but i bet that this was happening in reality back then too.
when we got FAST changings at sonar bearings,we start the method's procedure (not before).
IF you want to use the method with the stopped u-boat ...the workaround (at the situation that you are stopped and the target is 'coming' on you with a small angle) is to NOT USE EQUAL TIME INTERVALS but this demands to firstly know to do PERFECT the method with the equal time intervals . the not equal time intervals is the next step (i will do a video at future with not equal time intervals...it is on my todo list ).

Now I still don't understand exactly few things here. P1 is a really random location along line "a"?---yes ,absolutely random How far should be A2?---the goal is the angle between your theoritical fourth bearing and the final fourth bearing to become as large as possible(---the ideal is to become 90 degrees) Is there a precise time interval for bearing readings and a precise distance to travel between A1 and A2?---no to both.for time intervals...a rule that is NOT general is the time to have ,for example, 4-5 degrees bearing change from b1 to b2And about the precision of these readings... in this case I had a convoy and is impossible to say that the bearing is exactly 46 and not 44 or , not to mention that the sound level was very low. I could cheat by asking the sonarman/computer, but then what the point in realistic play?---read the above ...learn first to do it PERFECT with the bearing lines on map and then try to get it harder! Also, the sonar panel is broken, those vu meters are not working.. but let's say I have a broken sonar in reality. And I play with map contacts off, so my map is clear and I'm completely blind.

Your video is not helping me because I always stop the sub when I search for contacts.---you don't understand me. i told you to watch ONLY the part of the finding the first point of ''red line''.you can follow the same procedure, with the stopped u-boat ,in order to find the point P4 I know that the sea is not static, but these high level of physics are not implemented in the game, so is no point in keep the sub moving ---you will reconsider once you learn to do them both...you will see...and also do extra math to calculate the currents and my real speed.---there is no need for this (your speed).method is not effected by your speed

And regarding the tools... what I need most is a 2 ring & rotating compass so I don't need to position my ship at N or W every time I search for contacts.---why to do this ? there is no need ,you can draw the bearings at whatever direction your boat may beAlso a more exact ruler that I can also rotate. For example, to read the right values for where I should mark G between A1 and P1.I could do it as I did it now, by measure it on the monitor, but is kinda hard to keep the same zoom level all the time.---see the video at the part i told you ! you can avoid this... You guys have these tools in SH3-4, for SH5 is available only in TDW UI. As I said, right now I do all my maths on paper then I try to copy it on the navmap.. that's why most of the time I got wrong results. In booth cases, I miss the right tools.---you,allready have all the tools you need,see the video at the spoken part.maybe,you ''miss'' [-don't know becuase sh5 is deleted from my HD-]the big compass rose that is attached to you sub but again you can make the bearing drawings by using your protractor.also,use the circle tool when you want to make parallel lines (see the video )Tbh.. I would love to have such a table as it is in the game.. with a huge map and a lot of tools .. that would kill the boredom of this endless sink-refit gamestyle :P

Anyway, my biggest issue so far is the target speed. I'm using the 3.15 method and most of the time I can calculate the right speed, but not in the combat after I hit a target and the ship(s) speed change. That is the point when I go completely blind and I just estimate the speed according to what the game use so far.. 6-7 knts for evading merchant ships.---when target is changing speed or course you have no method for finding course or speed (they are changing !!). at sh3 i use the aob rings when i want to make a very fast shots (as in this case ) without map ploting ,with a constant speed measuring (fixed-wired method) and always a salvo shooting when target is changing course and speed (although the targets are 'idiots' ...i mean that they don't change course ,at least at sh3...they zig-zaging at the SAME course---i hope that devs have fixed ,at least this, in sh5) This is when I miss a lot. Wonder how those guys at that time made the maths when they conducted their attacks inside a moving convoy ... at night.

hi Magnum,

look above at blue letters

bye

Zedi · 10-06-10, 05:34 AM

Interesting, thanks for the suggestions/corrections. For sure there is a lot more to learn and all is based on experience. Regarding the tools, I play with the stock UI which lack in tools for nav map. There is a tool helper, but I cannot rotate it. So for example when ma boat is heading 45, is really hard to draw out the right bearing of my target. No compass rose, no other fancy stuff that are only available in bigger mods like TDW and Reaper's UI right now, none as stand alone mod.

In SH5 ships change course, not only zig-zag. TDW's great mod, IRAI, do that. So ships instead of just zig-zagin and following their default course, they try to evade by changing course, sometimes even with 180 degrees. So this make the hunt extremely difficult with high realism.. not once got almost ramed by merchants when I conducted an attack from inside the convoy. So that's the part where you have to think and act very fast. Luck with the voice command mod, so I can give out orders very fast.

Btw.. any chance to see a MaGui version for SH5 anytime soon?

But a version without dials on screen if possible and focused on high realism play style. Means ... with a dream navmap with all those juicy tools that is available in the mod right now.

LE: Almost forgot.. I can't use the "map contact on" option.. the sonarman will give me the target range, so is not an option. Is not point to use this method since I already have drwan on the map the target bearing and range...

sharky02 · 11-16-10, 12:50 AM

Hi all..
I've downloaded Solution Solver, but a can't open it on my lappy. Anyone can help me?

vanjast · 11-18-10, 05:32 PM

Pardon me if I may say, not having played SH5 but spent many 'game years' in SH3/4 on 100% (full real - no icons/no charts/nudder/nothing), there's nothing to beat target course and speed by either.

1) running parallel to target course.
2) running 90Degs to target course.

with both of these methods, and some experience you need at most 2 readings to determine target course and speed. It's simple mental maths and no chart drawings.. etc.

Zedi · 11-19-10, 03:32 AM

Great info, but until point 1. and 2. you need to figure out the target course &speed.

vanjast · 11-19-10, 01:39 PM

It's related to your course and speed by well known trigonometry formulae

vanjast · 11-20-10, 04:22 PM

I'm a bit curious...
Is it still possible in SH5 to determine ship speed by rev counting on the sonar/hydrophone ?

Kuikueg · 03-02-11, 02:12 AM

First, let me direct you to here where you will find a much improved account of the method.

Secondly: it's not a matter of preference of method. It's about the situation. In a dark, moonless night with rough weather, when sonar is the only detection tool available, the four bearings method is your only chance of chasing a target and finding a firing solution, provided that you are playing full real.

07-26-10, 06:50 AM	#48
makman94 Hellas Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,325 Downloads: 182 Uploads: 7	yes Kuikueg and Kara ,you are both right! we have to keep speed and course for the second interval too ! my bad.. __________________ Knowledge is the only thing that nobody can ever take from you... Mediafire page:http://www.mediafire.com/folder/da50.../Makman94_Mods

10-02-10, 09:02 AM	#49
makman94 Hellas Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,325 Downloads: 182 Uploads: 7	hello to all, a new video (HD) made by me is uploaded on youtube showing again this excellent method that Kuikueg shared with us ! in this video ,you can also see how to do the ''job'' with ONLY FOUR bearings (instead of five that are showing at Kuikueg's notes or to my previous video.of course,he is mentioning that four are enough...now you will see how it is done) once , again ...i want to thank Kuikueg for the VERY BEST method ! __________________ Knowledge is the only thing that nobody can ever take from you... Mediafire page:http://www.mediafire.com/folder/da50.../Makman94_Mods

10-06-10, 05:34 AM	#54
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	Interesting, thanks for the suggestions/corrections. For sure there is a lot more to learn and all is based on experience. Regarding the tools, I play with the stock UI which lack in tools for nav map. There is a tool helper, but I cannot rotate it. So for example when ma boat is heading 45, is really hard to draw out the right bearing of my target. No compass rose, no other fancy stuff that are only available in bigger mods like TDW and Reaper's UI right now, none as stand alone mod. In SH5 ships change course, not only zig-zag. TDW's great mod, IRAI, do that. So ships instead of just zig-zagin and following their default course, they try to evade by changing course, sometimes even with 180 degrees. So this make the hunt extremely difficult with high realism.. not once got almost ramed by merchants when I conducted an attack from inside the convoy. So that's the part where you have to think and act very fast. Luck with the voice command mod, so I can give out orders very fast. Btw.. any chance to see a MaGui version for SH5 anytime soon? But a version without dials on screen if possible and focused on high realism play style. Means ... with a dream navmap with all those juicy tools that is available in the mod right now. LE: Almost forgot.. I can't use the "map contact on" option.. the sonarman will give me the target range, so is not an option. Is not point to use this method since I already have drwan on the map the target bearing and range... Last edited by Zedi; 10-06-10 at 07:37 AM.

11-16-10, 12:50 AM	#55
sharky02 Nub Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	solution solver Hi all.. I've downloaded Solution Solver, but a can't open it on my lappy. Anyone can help me?

07-25-10, 05:50 PM	#46
karamazovnew The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,403 Downloads: 151 Uploads: 0	Cool idea. But we need to maintain course and speed for the second interval too (between 2'd and 3'd bearings). After that the best thing I guess would be to simply stop the boat

07-26-10, 03:31 AM	#47
Kuikueg Watch Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Spain Posts: 26 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Yesterday I was thicker than usual and so I have to correct myself again: if you keep speed and course, the red line becomes the fourth bearing. So Makman was absolutely right. About the simplification of procedure, for it to work you need to keep speed and course for the three first bearings, otherwise the red line won't pass through your protracted fourth position, right?

10-03-10, 10:19 AM	#50
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	Makman, can you explain me what vent wrong in this case: The blue line should be the correct bearing of the target acording to this method, but somehow. the red line was the true bearing. Somethimes this method work, but somethimes.. is just wrong and I can't figure out why. The time interval between bearing measurement is 10 minutes. I just can't explain how come the final path was exactly the opposite to the calculated one. Can you mod your nav map tools to be available for sh5 too? I so miss some pro tools for drawing on map.. right now I do my math on paper, it realistic but also annoying :/

10-05-10, 03:38 AM	#52
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	I used a ruler on the monitor to see how wrong I was. Yeah, your right... is a difference, G should be a little bit at left, where is the second 0 from 0.0. In that case, P2 should be where is the top edge of M from KM on the "b" line. True, is a huge difference in the direction of the target, but even so, is not the real course. And going further, the readings from A2 will still hit around S4 and gives me a bigger distance than in reality. Now I still don't understand exactly few things here. P1 is a really random location along line "a"? How far should be A2? Is there a precise time interval for bearing readings and a precise distance to travel between A1 and A2? And about the precision of these readings... in this case I had a convoy and is impossible to say that the bearing is exactly 46 and not 44 or , not to mention that the sound level was very low. I could cheat by asking the sonarman/computer, but then what the point in realistic play? Also, the sonar panel is broken, those vu meters are not working.. but let's say I have a broken sonar in reality. And I play with map contacts off, so my map is clear and I'm completely blind. Your video is not helping me because I always stop the sub when I search for contacts. I know that the sea is not static, but these high level of physics are not implemented in the game, so is no point in keep the sub moving and also do extra math to calculate the currents and my real speed. And regarding the tools... what I need most is a 2 ring & rotating compass so I don't need to position my ship at N or W every time I search for contacts. Also a more exact ruler that I can also rotate. For example, to read the right values for where I should mark G between A1 and P1. I could do it as I did it now, by measure it on the monitor, but is kinda hard to keep the same zoom level all the time. You guys have these tools in SH3-4, for SH5 is available only in TDW UI. As I said, right now I do all my maths on paper then I try to copy it on the navmap.. that's why most of the time I got wrong results. In booth cases, I miss the right tools. Tbh.. I would love to have such a table as it is in the game.. with a huge map and a lot of tools .. that would kill the boredom of this endless sink-refit gamestyle :P Anyway, my biggest issue so far is the target speed. I'm using the 3.15 method and most of the time I can calculate the right speed, but not in the combat after I hit a target and the ship(s) speed change. That is the point when I go completely blind and I just estimate the speed according to what the game use so far.. 6-7 knts for evading merchant ships. This is when I miss a lot. Wonder how those guys at that time made the maths when they conducted their attacks inside a moving convoy ... at night.

11-18-10, 05:32 PM	#56
vanjast Sea Lord Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Somewhere else now Posts: 1,660 Downloads: 801 Uploads: 4	Pardon me if I may say, not having played SH5 but spent many 'game years' in SH3/4 on 100% (full real - no icons/no charts/nudder/nothing), there's nothing to beat target course and speed by either. 1) running parallel to target course. 2) running 90Degs to target course. with both of these methods, and some experience you need at most 2 readings to determine target course and speed. It's simple mental maths and no chart drawings.. etc.

11-19-10, 03:32 AM	#57
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	Great info, but until point 1. and 2. you need to figure out the target course &speed.

11-19-10, 01:39 PM	#58
vanjast Sea Lord Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Somewhere else now Posts: 1,660 Downloads: 801 Uploads: 4	It's related to your course and speed by well known trigonometry formulae

11-20-10, 04:22 PM	#59
vanjast Sea Lord Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Somewhere else now Posts: 1,660 Downloads: 801 Uploads: 4	I'm a bit curious... Is it still possible in SH5 to determine ship speed by rev counting on the sonar/hydrophone ?

03-02-11, 02:12 AM	#60
Kuikueg Watch Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Spain Posts: 26 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	First, let me direct you to here where you will find a much improved account of the method. Secondly: it's not a matter of preference of method. It's about the situation. In a dark, moonless night with rough weather, when sonar is the only detection tool available, the four bearings method is your only chance of chasing a target and finding a firing solution, provided that you are playing full real.