SH5 modding difficulties - Page 2

gap · 01-04-19, 06:25 PM

Nice discussion going on here guys:

@ oskar123

Low poly count is not (always) a big issue; some models that have been released for SHIII and SHIV are even more detailed/accurate than SH5 ones, but there are several other limits inherent to the dat format or to the way old models are built. In confirmation of Seaowl's remark, here are some of the main minus points of the units imported directly from older SH games:

SH5 makes an extensive use of normal maps (for creating the illusion of more detailed/rough surfaces) and ambient occlusion maps (for increasing the perception of 3D volumes, for painting camo schemes on top of the regular textures and for adding dirt/rust to them). Unfortunatelu SHIII has only limited support for normal and ambient occlusion maps; that means that all the ship models imported from that game lack those features and they look a bit lavished in SH5. The missing maps can be created manually, but doing that slows down the import process, especially for a.o. maps that require being mapped on a different UV projection than the regular textures.
Conversely, SHIV fully supports normal and a.o. maps, but those textures are added to each model by means of the unified render controller, a controller native to SHIV. This controller works in SH5 too, and it is needed for ships imported in SH5 to look up to par, but IIRC it is not compatible with GR2 objects. Use a GR2 equipment on a dat ship with the said controller, and that equipment will look totally black in game. That means that, if we want dat ships to look as good as they look in SHIV, we need to import them together with their (dat) guns, even though those guns are already in the SH5 library folder (as gr2 objects).
Unlike SH5, SHIII ships have no internal parts modelled. When they break in half no 3D compartments and crumpled metal are visible, but just smooth surfaces closing the broken hull ends. More or less the same goes for torpedo holes: they are decals rather than real holes. A basic 3D model of ship interiors could be added but again: doing that will take time.
Unlike gr2 units, the underwater part of dat-format hulls in not visible when looking at them from above the water and it looks blurred when seen underwater (unless one places the camera so that the projection of the submerged object overlaps the water surface). These glitches could possibly be fixed only by editing SH5 shaders, if you can figure out their code.
Shadows are a broken feature in SHIII that, I think, was fixed in SHIV; anyway I seem to remember that SHIV shadows never worked in SH5 as granny-format shadows used in the latter game are computed in a completely different way. I could be wrong on that, but no shadows with dat ships in SH5
SH5 has a slightly different damage format that its predecessors. When the game was released, hull vicinity didn't trigger magnetic pistols. Paradoxically, after importing the first dat ships, it was discovered that unlike stock (gr2) ships the new (dat) ships could be sunk with magnetic torpedoes. At some point TDW created a patch that fixed magnetic detonations for gr2 ships, but messed it up for dat ships, so now you have to choose. I don't think you can get both unit types to break apart with a well placed magnetic torpedo.
GR2 units support LOD models; dat units don't.

Those are all the issues that I can think of, but I go by memory and I might have missed something or listed an inconvenience that has been worked-around in the meanwhile. Anyway, given these limits, when importing new ships, aircraft or submarines it would be difficult to obtain a qualitative level comparable to that of stock units if we only rely on the dat format and, with the tools we have currently available, converting whichever unit/model of some complexity to the gr2 format would be a slow and tourtuous process, though not impossible in theory.
That said, several dat ships have been imported in game, and though not perfect, they look and perform acceptably good in most situations. If we always aimed at perfection and waited for someone else to clear the path for us, the history of subsim modding would be probably stuck to the first Silent Hunter, so don't be afraid to be arrogant; be curious instead and follow Seaowl's or Jeff-Groves's advise: you will learn something new, and if you get stuck you can always ask here

oskar123 · 01-04-19, 06:33 PM

@jeff

I've been reading basically non-stop on this forum the last few days and grown wiser between every post.

From what I've understood so far, the only way to make ships with proper shaders and water transparancy is through the GR2 format, which is copyright locked. So, what you've done is buy user rights. Have I understood it correctly?

I'd love to help, be aware though that I'm a total newbie so I'll have to learn basically from scratch. I've done some modding as stated before but never worked with Silent Hunter before.

I've found very little info on the progress you've made. Is the exporter usable in it's current state? What needs to be done? And where is the rebel base?

Regards, Oskar

gap · 01-04-19, 06:57 PM

@ Jeff

No need to say sorry mate. I am glad that you found your old files!

I have received your e-amails but as I had anticipated I was busy with family in the last couple of days and I had no time to give you feed-back. No doubt, I will do that tomorrow.

@ Seaowl

I definitely agree with you about the beauty of the ships by the modders you have mentioned, and I hope too to see them in SH5 too!

Talking about lighthouses, I have gained some experience with them while helping Kendras with his own Lighthouse mod for SHIII, and I have several lighthouse and daymark models ready or semi-ready too.

In my opinion the best way to set up lighthouses in game, is as land units. Doing that not only bypasses the problem of too short model fading ranges (that I am also facing with my EcoMod), but it enables us to customize each model via eqp/cfg files, and it makes possible for models to appear/disappear or to be darkened based on game date.

Lighthouse and other beacons, as well as more historically correct ports, channels, etc. might be another feature of the EcoMod if you guys like the idea

oskar123 · 01-04-19, 07:17 PM

@gap

Thanks! That was exactly the kind of overview I was looking for.

Jeff-Groves · 01-04-19, 07:19 PM

The over view is not exactly correct.

"Unlike SH5, SHIII and SHIV ships have no internal parts modeled."
Wrong. SH4 Units have internal damages 3D models.
You can see from TDW's thread that it is working in a minor way in SH5.

Now take in to account that gap and I may have forgotten more then most people know!

gap · 01-04-19, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

"Unlike SH5, SHIII and SHIV ships have no internal parts modeled."
Wrong. SH4 Units have internal damages 3D models.

Maybe only some of them, or perhaps I am looking at the wrong model part. This is stock SHIV's Somers DD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Now take in to account that gap and I may have forgotten more then most people know!

Possibly yes

Jeff-Groves · 01-04-19, 07:50 PM

LOL!! You didn't check the show hidden objects thing Mate!

That Unit has internal damages 3D object!

One thing not implemented in the SH3 to SH4 converter was the ability to take the damages from any ship and import to a converted ship.

Speaking of that converter? It's a great start for doing SH3 ships to SH5! No more hand editing!

oskar123 · 01-04-19, 07:56 PM

I actually knew that already ^^

I've spent a lot of time playing around with SH4

Either way, what is 010? Teach me!

gap · 01-04-19, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

LOL!! You didn't check the show hidden objects thing Mate!

That Unit has internal damages 3D object!

I did. That part is normally hidden. I hid the main model and toggled on the visibility of NDD_Somers_B before taking that screenshot. Am I missing something else

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

One thing not implemented in the SH3 to SH4 converter was the ability to take the damages from any ship and import to a converted ship.

Speaking of that converter? It's a great start for doing SH3 ships to SH5! No more hand editing!

You are teaching me something new here; I wasn't aware about that converter. Where can I download it from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar123

@gap

Thanks! That was exactly the kind of overview I was looking for.

You welcome oskar. I am glad that you found it useful

Jeff-Groves · 01-04-19, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gap

I did. That part is normally hidden. I hid the main model and toggled on the visibility of NDD_Somers_B before taking that screenshot. Am I missing something else

Have S3D show you all hidden objects or check node 103.
then do a view and have it show only solo mode.
You'll get a pop up.

Jeff-Groves · 01-04-19, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar123

I actually knew that already ^^

I've spent a lot of time playing around with SH4

Either way, what is 010? Teach me!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=239565

Years of time wasted having fun is about to explode!

gap · 01-04-19, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Have S3D show you all hidden objects or check node 103.
then do a view and have it show only solo mode.
You'll get a pop up.

You are right: I had overlooked that damage model. I stand corrected

Tell me something about the SHIII to SHIV model converter, please. Where can we get it from?

Jeff-Groves · 01-04-19, 08:09 PM

Look in the SH4 mod shop.
You MIGHT find it.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=239270

gap · 01-04-19, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Look in the SH4 mod shop.
You MIGHT find it.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=239270

I ACCIDENTALLY stumbled upon it while taking a glance at post #1 in that thread. Brilliant tool, thank you for sharing Jeff!

Jeff-Groves · 01-04-19, 08:21 PM

That was what was to be used for GWX 4 back in the day.
There was no S3D and many Units to convert.

01-04-19, 06:25 PM	#16
gap Navy Seal Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: CJ8937 Posts: 8,214 Downloads: 793 Uploads: 10	Nice discussion going on here guys: @ oskar123 Low poly count is not (always) a big issue; some models that have been released for SHIII and SHIV are even more detailed/accurate than SH5 ones, but there are several other limits inherent to the dat format or to the way old models are built. In confirmation of Seaowl's remark, here are some of the main minus points of the units imported directly from older SH games: SH5 makes an extensive use of normal maps (for creating the illusion of more detailed/rough surfaces) and ambient occlusion maps (for increasing the perception of 3D volumes, for painting camo schemes on top of the regular textures and for adding dirt/rust to them). Unfortunatelu SHIII has only limited support for normal and ambient occlusion maps; that means that all the ship models imported from that game lack those features and they look a bit lavished in SH5. The missing maps can be created manually, but doing that slows down the import process, especially for a.o. maps that require being mapped on a different UV projection than the regular textures. Conversely, SHIV fully supports normal and a.o. maps, but those textures are added to each model by means of the unified render controller, a controller native to SHIV. This controller works in SH5 too, and it is needed for ships imported in SH5 to look up to par, but IIRC it is not compatible with GR2 objects. Use a GR2 equipment on a dat ship with the said controller, and that equipment will look totally black in game. That means that, if we want dat ships to look as good as they look in SHIV, we need to import them together with their (dat) guns, even though those guns are already in the SH5 library folder (as gr2 objects). Unlike SH5, SHIII ships have no internal parts modelled. When they break in half no 3D compartments and crumpled metal are visible, but just smooth surfaces closing the broken hull ends. More or less the same goes for torpedo holes: they are decals rather than real holes. A basic 3D model of ship interiors could be added but again: doing that will take time. Unlike gr2 units, the underwater part of dat-format hulls in not visible when looking at them from above the water and it looks blurred when seen underwater (unless one places the camera so that the projection of the submerged object overlaps the water surface). These glitches could possibly be fixed only by editing SH5 shaders, if you can figure out their code. Shadows are a broken feature in SHIII that, I think, was fixed in SHIV; anyway I seem to remember that SHIV shadows never worked in SH5 as granny-format shadows used in the latter game are computed in a completely different way. I could be wrong on that, but no shadows with dat ships in SH5 SH5 has a slightly different damage format that its predecessors. When the game was released, hull vicinity didn't trigger magnetic pistols. Paradoxically, after importing the first dat ships, it was discovered that unlike stock (gr2) ships the new (dat) ships could be sunk with magnetic torpedoes. At some point TDW created a patch that fixed magnetic detonations for gr2 ships, but messed it up for dat ships, so now you have to choose. I don't think you can get both unit types to break apart with a well placed magnetic torpedo. GR2 units support LOD models; dat units don't. Those are all the issues that I can think of, but I go by memory and I might have missed something or listed an inconvenience that has been worked-around in the meanwhile. Anyway, given these limits, when importing new ships, aircraft or submarines it would be difficult to obtain a qualitative level comparable to that of stock units if we only rely on the dat format and, with the tools we have currently available, converting whichever unit/model of some complexity to the gr2 format would be a slow and tourtuous process, though not impossible in theory. That said, several dat ships have been imported in game, and though not perfect, they look and perform acceptably good in most situations. If we always aimed at perfection and waited for someone else to clear the path for us, the history of subsim modding would be probably stuck to the first Silent Hunter, so don't be afraid to be arrogant; be curious instead and follow Seaowl's or Jeff-Groves's advise: you will learn something new, and if you get stuck you can always ask here __________________ _____________________ \|May the Force be with you!\| ...\/ Last edited by gap; 01-04-19 at 08:49 PM.

01-04-19, 06:33 PM	#17
oskar123 Watch Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 20 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	@jeff I've been reading basically non-stop on this forum the last few days and grown wiser between every post. From what I've understood so far, the only way to make ships with proper shaders and water transparancy is through the GR2 format, which is copyright locked. So, what you've done is buy user rights. Have I understood it correctly? I'd love to help, be aware though that I'm a total newbie so I'll have to learn basically from scratch. I've done some modding as stated before but never worked with Silent Hunter before. I've found very little info on the progress you've made. Is the exporter usable in it's current state? What needs to be done? And where is the rebel base? Regards, Oskar __________________ I will always input AoB backwards.

01-04-19, 06:57 PM	#18
gap Navy Seal Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: CJ8937 Posts: 8,214 Downloads: 793 Uploads: 10	@ Jeff No need to say sorry mate. I am glad that you found your old files! I have received your e-amails but as I had anticipated I was busy with family in the last couple of days and I had no time to give you feed-back. No doubt, I will do that tomorrow. @ Seaowl I definitely agree with you about the beauty of the ships by the modders you have mentioned, and I hope too to see them in SH5 too! Talking about lighthouses, I have gained some experience with them while helping Kendras with his own Lighthouse mod for SHIII, and I have several lighthouse and daymark models ready or semi-ready too. In my opinion the best way to set up lighthouses in game, is as land units. Doing that not only bypasses the problem of too short model fading ranges (that I am also facing with my EcoMod), but it enables us to customize each model via eqp/cfg files, and it makes possible for models to appear/disappear or to be darkened based on game date. Lighthouse and other beacons, as well as more historically correct ports, channels, etc. might be another feature of the EcoMod if you guys like the idea __________________ _____________________ \|May the Force be with you!\| ...\/

01-04-19, 07:17 PM	#19
oskar123 Watch Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 20 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	@gap Thanks! That was exactly the kind of overview I was looking for. __________________ I will always input AoB backwards.

01-04-19, 07:56 PM	#23
oskar123 Watch Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 20 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	I actually knew that already ^^ I've spent a lot of time playing around with SH4 Either way, what is 010? Teach me! __________________ I will always input AoB backwards.

01-04-19, 07:19 PM	#20
Jeff-Groves Village Idiot Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,319 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 0	The over view is not exactly correct. "Unlike SH5, SHIII and SHIV ships have no internal parts modeled." Wrong. SH4 Units have internal damages 3D models. You can see from TDW's thread that it is working in a minor way in SH5. Now take in to account that gap and I may have forgotten more then most people know!

01-04-19, 07:50 PM	#22
Jeff-Groves Village Idiot Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,319 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 0	LOL!! You didn't check the show hidden objects thing Mate! That Unit has internal damages 3D object! One thing not implemented in the SH3 to SH4 converter was the ability to take the damages from any ship and import to a converted ship. Speaking of that converter? It's a great start for doing SH3 ships to SH5! No more hand editing!

01-04-19, 08:09 PM	#28
Jeff-Groves Village Idiot Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,319 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 0	Look in the SH4 mod shop. You MIGHT find it. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=239270

01-04-19, 08:21 PM	#30
Jeff-Groves Village Idiot Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,319 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 0	That was what was to be used for GWX 4 back in the day. There was no S3D and many Units to convert.