Ships not sinking?

[Task Force]

Anyone else ever had a issue with ships not sinking... I had one of my BBs attacking about 10 brit DDs. but 2 just would not sink, I put over 60 shells in that thing and it just would not sink. The damage just would stay at heavy.

[Bullethead]

A lot depends on where you hit them. Ships only sink from hits that let in water. If all your hits are above the water, then they ain't gonna sink, or at least not rapidly.

Quite often, however, ships that show heavy damage are technically sinking. Remember that the current color of the dot and the name of the current damage status are just that--current values. Neither of these things show trends. Many times, but not always, ships that are heavily damaged will have water coming in faster than they can pump it out. They will often eventually go to sinking status as a result. However, you might not see that happen.

[Task Force]

Well. It was still moveing. I eventualy gave up after a hour of shelling it, I dont know how it could have survived, the ships hull was ripped open like a tin can. Other than this dd, I had been tearing through them. But this one just would not sink. I had a torpedo boat do the same thing, it was under constant shelling from distroyers, and just would not go past heavy damage.

They will often eventually go to sinking status as a result. However, you might not see that happen.

So the ships might actualy be regestered sunk, but still visiable as if they are not??? If Im getting what your saying.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Task Force

So the ships might actualy be regestered sunk, but still visiable as if they are not??? If Im getting what your saying.

Yes, a ship on heavy damage might well be doomed to sink, it's just doesn't happen to be sinking at that particular moment

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Yes, a ship on heavy damage might well be doomed to sink, it's just doesn't happen to be sinking at that particular moment

What happens is, the damage model is dealing with flooding rates. X amount of water coming in per time vs. Y amount able to be pumped out per time. X is a function of hit location and the damage done by any individual hit, and Y is a function of propulsion damage, crew losses, fire level, etc, all of which can be damaged by the same hits that let in water, but might not be.

If the water is coming in faster than it can be pumped out, and it's one of your own ships, you'll see the dreaded red text "flooding exceeds pumping capacity" on the Ship Info Screen. This info, however, isn't shown if it's an enemy ship so you never know except by what you can observe, such as the colored dot getting closer to black, the list increases, the speed reducing, etc.

It's possible for ships to recover from this condition, but not all that likely. It all depends on what happens to them.

Another thing to consider is what you're shooting at the DD in question. If you're shooting anything 6" or smaller, the only ammo you've got is HE, whcih is good for killing such things. Anything bigger shoots AP, which has a pretty good chance of going right through without making much of a hole. But even with HE, a ship might get lucky on where you hit it. Hits in funnels and masts make the same graphics as hits on the waterline, so sometimes it's hard to tell.

However, if an enemy ship is shot up enough to sink eventually, it will either sink at or shortly after the end of the battle. If happens soon enough, you'll see it as dead when the battle ends. But it might take hours, and you won't know unless you have another battle with that enemy force and see it happen.

And just for instance, I have 2 neighbors alive today who were shot 6 or 8 times in the torso by somebody in the same room with them. All bullets were fired with intent to kill, but none hit anything vital enough to kill them quickly (obviously, I wasn't shooting them ). The badguys ran out of ammo and left, and help then arrived, and so they're still with us. They were messed up, and still ain't what they used to be, but they're far from dead.

Our games ain't like most naval sims, where ships have "hit points" and ever shell that hits contributes to sinking them. In our games, each shell is tracked throughout its trajectory and the location it hits the target is very important as to how much damage is done, and to what gets damaged. IOW, we have a lot of meaningless hits in our battles, just like in real life. So sometimes you just get unlucky and all your shells hit nothing quickly fatal.

[rubberboot]

My biggest issue with ships not sinking, is how accurate the German side is. I made a scenario that pitted 20 older Brit battleships/pre-dreadnoughts, versus 4 Westfalens and 4 Helgolands. I had to turn it off. The brits were mauled, badly. I think I sank a (read 1) Helgoland class ship, and 2 others had heavy damage. The British fire was not systematic or scientific (Percy Scott and Fiske are rolling in there grave right now...) as the salvos were all over the place. 1st salvo near (100yrds short approx), next way over, and then followed with a way short. When they did hit, it was with 1 shell only, not a group of shells. I like the shell camera by the way, its neat. Deflections were good, just range finding was really bad. Germans were much more consistant, when they found the range, you get hammered. Historically, German range finding was more accurate, using longer base sterioscopic rangefinders (Zeiss), while the British relied on the shorter base coinidence type from Barr and Stroud, which caused an overestimation of range. It was more the length of the rangefinger than the type that made the difference (size does matter...). I don't know if this factor was taken into account in this game, but it still can't justify the odd rangefinding, unless all the British spotters had too many pints of stout/lager right before the battle and were seeing all kinds of splashes. From what I have read, the German long range fire was accurate at the beginning of a battle, but tended to go off as they did not use as detailed a battle tracer/plotter like a Dreyer table that the British used. The British were much more consistant and deliberate. Please understand that I am only a history buff/enthusist, and throwing in my unqualified observations.

In the aforementioned senerio, I had Human control of both fleets, slightly closing paths, fire open at about 20000yds. I got frustrated and turned the german fleet so that the British Battleships were crossing the 'T', and the fire didn't improve. It was the same scattered shooting.

I really like this game, just think the balance needs to be tweaked a bit. Mind you, it could be that I am just a bad commander.....

BTW, I was down to 6 ships remaining when I turned it off. Had lots of magazine explosions.

Regards,
Glenn

[Raptor1]

Must...fight...urge...to...use...overdone...games. ..argument...

[Buddahaid]

Here's my two cents for the team. I've run the duel three times without changing anything. First time as the British, and the second two as the Germans. The Konig Albert lost all three. This was me against the AI.

Buddahaid

[Gammel]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Here's my two cents for the team. I've run the duel three times without changing anything. First time as the British, and the second two as the Germans. The Konig Albert lost all three. This was me against the AI.

Buddahaid

I found the scenario hard to win for the K. Albert too - i've never made it.
one time i managed to damage the H.M.S. ship badly - trying to keep her in range of my medium (15 cm ) artillery, not letting her come too close using her own medium guns.

[Raptor1]

Huh? I ran The Duel a total of 3 times (That I can remember), KA came out victorious 2 out of 3 times