Trigger Maru overhauled or Fall of the rising sun ultimate?

[Jean Led]

Hello,


So sh4 is probably my least played silent hunter series, Im more into the altantic and u-boats.


Very recently I tried the ato mods and taking a liking to them. And it got me thinking. Why dont I try a good old pacific campaign in a US sub, maybe my perception changed and I will have a blast ( using imperial beside for knots ).


Now it seems there are two main mega mods to choose from.


TMO or FotRS?
I went over the mods and read them and their change a bit already, but as someone with very few hours in silent hunter 4 it doesnt really speak to me.
Could a gentle soul explain to me their differences and possible recommendations? Or redirect me to a thread doing so, I havent found one.


I usually enjoy a good challenge, evading smart destroyers is one of the more fun aspect for me, crash diving every 2 in game hours for planes a bit less ( I didnt get the memo you had to submerge during the entire day at the time).
I also wouldnt say no to the one with the better effects and graphics.


Thank you

[goldmastersims]

FOTRSU is better for beginners. It's mainly a graphical and content overhaul of the game. In a lot of ways, it's easier than the vanilla game.

TMO is better for advanced players. Its aim is high realism and historical accuracy. It forces you to play smart or get sunk. Has a lot of content compared to the original too.

Make sure you use TMO BH if you go for the latter. Bubblehead1980 is now the de facto TMO dev who is fixing TMO 2.5's problems and adding even more content. It has more realistic objectives than the original TMO. Escorts use mid-war sonar from the beginning. And you can make historically accurate night surface attacks.

In addition to the required addons to install, get EAX sound mod and depth charge disturbance mod.

[Mad Mardigan]

With both FotRS-U & TMOv2.5 BH edition... both are good in their own right.

Fall, is a bit easier but it does have in it, workings to add in, that make it as realistic as the player wants to make it... as it regards torp's & the dud rate on them.

It does have as well, the Nipon Maru/Nihon Kaigun add in, for the IJN/merchie's addition. Then, there is vicker's work to add to it.

So, there is a lot to add in to the base segment of it.

As pointed out, TMO, being reworked by Bubblehead1980, to be able to actually be surfaced & attack targets... is a very big improvement, as is the more realistic ship traffic, the damages model... the ability to go with having torp's with tnt early on then having them with torpex.

Currently, BH is working on a more added to updated version, which will be released... soon as He feels it is ready... which, is a good thing.

I can only say... is try both & then roll with 1 set up... or the other... or heck, do both, if you have the space for it.

It's all... up to you, in the final end analysis...


Myself, I enjoy both...


Hope this helps... as always.







M. M.

[Jean Led]

Thanks for the suggestions and clarification you two!
Honestly Im hard pressed to choose and will probably try both.

( I currently have on this pc sh3 gwx, lsh3, s5 twos, sh4 dark waters and sh4 ksd 2 ace. I think I need to be interned its becoming an obsession )


FotRS-U seem to have a lot of add on possibilities which I love, especially to make it less easy because that is not appealing to me.



Which one has the best damage model ( for own ship and for ennemies)?


Escorts using mid war sonar is an add on in jgsme or you have to run with it? I rather go with realistic but keep it challenging.


Also identification book differs a lot? I dont like scrolling for hours through similar ships and see which one has a bent micro mast compared to the other that does not. I really like the system of sh5 and some modded sh3 interface of organising by superstructure, smoke stacks and so on.
Is there any of that?


Sorry for being overly precise but thats what I love about mods

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Jean Led

Thanks for the suggestions and clarification you two!
Honestly Im hard pressed to choose and will probably try both.

( I currently have on this pc sh3 gwx, lsh3, s5 twos, sh4 dark waters and sh4 ksd 2 ace. I think I need to be interned its becoming an obsession )


FotRS-U seem to have a lot of add on possibilities which I love, especially to make it less easy because that is not appealing to me.



Which one has the best damage model ( for own ship and for ennemies)?


Escorts using mid war sonar is an add on in jgsme or you have to run with it? I rather go with realistic but keep it challenging.


Also identification book differs a lot? I dont like scrolling for hours through similar ships and see which one has a bent micro mast compared to the other that does not. I really like the system of sh5 and some modded sh3 interface of organising by superstructure, smoke stacks and so on.
Is there any of that?


Sorry for being overly precise but thats what I love about mods

Definitely give both a try

Far as sonar..

Well, in TMO the escorts do start with what in the game is "mid war sonar" , this was done because the early war sonar(while escorts could be tough) in TMO was just too easy to evade , even with modifications, and if modified to a point, it had same settings as mid war sonar. Basically even with Elite escorts, if went below 250-275 feet, escorts with Type93-1 sonar lost contact quickly. This made early war far too easy and quite boring t be honest. I used to rarely run patrols in early war because of it.

Thus, I decided to use the Type 93-3A (Active) and Type 93-3P(passive) sonars for most escorts from the start. Quite realistic in terms of capability actually, as these sets do not give them super abilities in early war, but makes them a challenge. Player can thus still operate in realistic manner and survive, but they are just not push overs. Contrary to what some may think, Japanese ASW were not pushovers, even in early war.

Coming from the U boat side of things, you may think mid war sonar and Allied mid war sonar comes to mind, but Japanese sonar was very different. Much different undersea war in the Pacific than Atlantic.

I suggest reading books "Clear the Bridge!" by Rear Admiral Richard O Kane (top US skipper of WW II), Thunder Below by Admiral Eugene Fluckey(another top skipper), Wahoo (also by O Kane), Silent Running by Admiral James Calvert (Calvert as a junior officer on USS Jack, ran the Torpedo Data Computer, successful submarine), and Torpedoman by Ron Smith for the Enlisted perspective. Also for a great overall work, Silent Victory by Clay Blair Jr, and also reading the patrol reports which are available to view for free at https://www.hnsa.org/manuals-documen...atrol-reports/.

These books and the reports will provide greater understanding of the Pacific Submarine campaign and much of what you read can be applied into the mods when running a patrol. Especially say in night surface attacks. Ability to conduct realistic night surface attacks, including getting inside the convoy in some instances, is a major part of TMO. Not easy, can still get shot up, but things have been balanced and tweaked so it is possible, requires player to think and even at times, some luck. IMHO, about most fun one will have in a sub sim. Of course, this tactic did not become standard until late 1943 and into 1944 for US subs.

Check out the SH 4 patrol report and/or screenshot threads or the "Tell us what you are up to in your campaign", I have posted a lot of reports of my patrols, including night surface attack reports there. I also added a "Night Surface Tactics" post as well, to explain things for conducting this in TMO.



Can't say which has "better" damage models, sure both are better than stock.

I have always hated how SH 4 handled damage, esp with depth charges, so for player submarines, I did a rework of damage model for more realism. Now, it is rare for "instadeath" when a charge is close, unless its a direct hit. Most subs lost by depth charges were lost as damage to critical systems accumulated which will overwhelm your boat and crew, causing boat to reach collapse depth or force to surface, of course can't always surface. In upcoming version, damage model is further refined.

For enemy ships, I did not do much in first version of TMO Update but in upcoming version, there are longer, more realistic sinking times. Make sure you use TheDarkWraith's fire damage mod for SH 4 when you run TMO, really adds to things.


Recognition manuals in mods are the same. The different rec manuals in SH 3 and SH 5 mods were done likely due to hard code fixes, which we do not have in SH 4. There is a "identify vessel " feature in TMO (believe in FOTRS as well). Crew, in US subs, did the identification anyways based on Captains descriptions, so let your crew identify it, then find it in the rec manual.

[Jean Led]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Definitely give both a try

Far as sonar..

Well, in TMO the escorts do start with what in the game is "mid war sonar" , this was done because the early war sonar(while escorts could be tough) in TMO was just too easy to evade , even with modifications, and if modified to a point, it had same settings as mid war sonar. Basically even with Elite escorts, if went below 250-275 feet, escorts with Type93-1 sonar lost contact quickly. This made early war far too easy and quite boring t be honest. I used to rarely run patrols in early war because of it.

Thus, I decided to use the Type 93-3A (Active) and Type 93-3P(passive) sonars for most escorts from the start. Quite realistic in terms of capability actually, as these sets do not give them super abilities in early war, but makes them a challenge. Player can thus still operate in realistic manner and survive, but they are just not push overs. Contrary to what some may think, Japanese ASW were not pushovers, even in early war.

Coming from the U boat side of things, you may think mid war sonar and Allied mid war sonar comes to mind, but Japanese sonar was very different. Much different undersea war in the Pacific than Atlantic.

I suggest reading books "Clear the Bridge!" by Rear Admiral Richard O Kane (top US skipper of WW II), Thunder Below by Admiral Eugene Fluckey(another top skipper), Wahoo (also by O Kane), Silent Running by Admiral James Calvert (Calvert as a junior officer on USS Jack, ran the Torpedo Data Computer, successful submarine), and Torpedoman by Ron Smith for the Enlisted perspective. Also for a great overall work, Silent Victory by Clay Blair Jr, and also reading the patrol reports which are available to view for free at https://www.hnsa.org/manuals-documen...atrol-reports/.

These books and the reports will provide greater understanding of the Pacific Submarine campaign and much of what you read can be applied into the mods when running a patrol. Especially say in night surface attacks. Ability to conduct realistic night surface attacks, including getting inside the convoy in some instances, is a major part of TMO. Not easy, can still get shot up, but things have been balanced and tweaked so it is possible, requires player to think and even at times, some luck. IMHO, about most fun one will have in a sub sim. Of course, this tactic did not become standard until late 1943 and into 1944 for US subs.

Check out the SH 4 patrol report and/or screenshot threads or the "Tell us what you are up to in your campaign", I have posted a lot of reports of my patrols, including night surface attack reports there. I also added a "Night Surface Tactics" post as well, to explain things for conducting this in TMO.



Can't say which has "better" damage models, sure both are better than stock.

I have always hated how SH 4 handled damage, esp with depth charges, so for player submarines, I did a rework of damage model for more realism. Now, it is rare for "instadeath" when a charge is close, unless its a direct hit. Most subs lost by depth charges were lost as damage to critical systems accumulated which will overwhelm your boat and crew, causing boat to reach collapse depth or force to surface, of course can't always surface. In upcoming version, damage model is further refined.

For enemy ships, I did not do much in first version of TMO Update but in upcoming version, there are longer, more realistic sinking times. Make sure you use TheDarkWraith's fire damage mod for SH 4 when you run TMO, really adds to things.


Recognition manuals in mods are the same. The different rec manuals in SH 3 and SH 5 mods were done likely due to hard code fixes, which we do not have in SH 4. There is a "identify vessel " feature in TMO (believe in FOTRS as well). Crew, in US subs, did the identification anyways based on Captains descriptions, so let your crew identify it, then find it in the rec manual.

Wow thanks for explaining the sonar thing, it makes more sense now. Do they get a better use out of it as the war goes on I assume?

I will defo check those books out, for now I know there is a layer and that torpedoes are crap. Did anyone try to model them circling and coming back towards your boat?
The surface attack aspect and the more realstic depth charge sounds great! I will check it out in game and go die in a s-boat within a week now.

Thank you for your reply and the work you have put in to make our gaming experience enhanced

[1Patriotofmany]

Originally Posted by Jean Led

Hello,


So sh4 is probably my least played silent hunter series, Im more into the altantic and u-boats.


Very recently I tried the ato mods and taking a liking to them. And it got me thinking. Why dont I try a good old pacific campaign in a US sub, maybe my perception changed and I will have a blast ( using imperial beside for knots ).


Now it seems there are two main mega mods to choose from.


TMO or FotRS?
I went over the mods and read them and their change a bit already, but as someone with very few hours in silent hunter 4 it doesnt really speak to me.
Could a gentle soul explain to me their differences and possible recommendations? Or redirect me to a thread doing so, I havent found one.


I usually enjoy a good challenge, evading smart destroyers is one of the more fun aspect for me, crash diving every 2 in game hours for planes a bit less ( I didnt get the memo you had to submerge during the entire day at the time).
I also wouldnt say no to the one with the better effects and graphics.


Thank you

OM Darkwaters is in the Atlantic and MED and The Indian/Pacific area depending on which mods you enable in JSGME. Check it out. I'm enjoying it in the Atlantic region. One glitch, I was sent on a mission in the Indian ocean/australia but a modder sent me a fix that apparently is working so far to keep all the objectives where they are supposed to be. Still testing the fix. There's also KSD II ACE which is Atlantic. For some reason I have issues with that on my machine. OM Darkwaters has been pretty damn stable.


As for the US side there a quite a few to chose from. I like Fotrs and TMOw/TW both. There's also A Brit mod called We Dive at Dawn, that's okay(british subs naturally) and a Japanese mod called IJN Jyunsen B if you want to play on the Japanese side in the pacific/indian oceans in their subs.

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by 1Patriotofmany

OM Darkwaters is in the Atlantic and MED and The Indian/Pacific area depending on which mods you enable in JSGME. Check it out. I'm enjoying it in the Atlantic region. One glitch, I was sent on a mission in the Indian ocean/australia but a modder sent me a fix that apparently is working so far to keep all the objectives where they are supposed to be. Still testing the fix. There's also KSD II ACE which is Atlantic. For some reason I have issues with that on my machine. OM Darkwaters has been pretty damn stable.


As for the US side there a quite a few to chose from. I like Fotrs and TMOw/TW both. There's also A Brit mod called We Dive at Dawn, that's okay(british subs naturally) and a Japanese mod called IJN Jyunsen B if you want to play on the Japanese side in the pacific/indian oceans in their subs.

Side note... on the We dive at Dawn & that IJN Jyunsen B.

Both of these, are... diamonds in the rough, to be frank. We dive, just a bit more... less rough about the edges than its counterpart, IJN Jyunsen B is.







M. M.

[Jean Led]

Originally Posted by 1Patriotofmany

OM Darkwaters is in the Atlantic and MED and The Indian/Pacific area depending on which mods you enable in JSGME. Check it out. I'm enjoying it in the Atlantic region. One glitch, I was sent on a mission in the Indian ocean/australia but a modder sent me a fix that apparently is working so far to keep all the objectives where they are supposed to be. Still testing the fix. There's also KSD II ACE which is Atlantic. For some reason I have issues with that on my machine. OM Darkwaters has been pretty damn stable.


As for the US side there a quite a few to chose from. I like Fotrs and TMOw/TW both. There's also A Brit mod called We Dive at Dawn, that's okay(british subs naturally) and a Japanese mod called IJN Jyunsen B if you want to play on the Japanese side in the pacific/indian oceans in their subs.

Yesss its what I meant by ato mods, I have ksd2 and dark waters both. Honestly I like ksd2 interface a lot more, but its way more instable. I think I got it figured out a bit more to have less crashes but it requires a few ctd to get the hang of it. Dark waters kept sending me to death by minefield in the channel in my type 2 coastal u-boat. I cheated with external camera to avoid mines because I have an irrational fear of them. Honestly they are super spooky to me, evil incarnate