Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Oberon]

I know where you're coming from with your concern Skybird, but I think that if America does decide to take itself out of the European picture (and honestly, who can blame it with the abuse that has been hurled its way by Europeans over the past fifty years?) and Russia and China decide to seek closer ties (and again, who can blame them? Russia was snubbed by Europe and America so it turns to the only other partner it has, the PRC) then the only way that we can present a credible deterrant to any thoughts of Russian expansion in Europe either militarily or politically is through a united front, and the only united front in Europe is the EU.
Naturally this will be abused, just as the original ideals behind the EEC were abused, just as the post-wall agreements with Russia were abused, but equally alone and scattered we cannot present a credible political power, the days of the Empires are long gone, we individually do not have the industry or economy to be a rival to the likes of China, Russia or the US.

I think that there will be a day soon where Europe will come to a fork in the road, probably around the time that the US economy receives another nasty hiccup and we are not prepared for it. The choice will be thus, split up and return to the Europe of old, warring, bickering, easy prey for the superpowers around us, or consolidate into a superstate in order to keep Europe relevant on the world stage, and this choice will set up the new century of global politics.

[mapuc]

@ Skybird, very interesting post you wrote.

I think I believe why China refuse to go with Russia proposal

China is the country who has lent USA most money and they have a lot of money "tied" in USA.

I don't think it is in China's interest to see their money go down the drain.

Markus

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by mapuc

@ Skybird, very interesting post you wrote.

I think I believe why China refuse to go with Russia proposal

China is the country who has lent USA most money and they have a lot of money "tied" in USA.

I don't think it is in China's interest to see their money go down the drain.

Markus

Chinese money is tied up with Russia as well. They will want both outstanding loans repaid.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/id...30213?irpc=932

[MH]

Originally Posted by mapuc

@ Skybird, very interesting post you wrote.

I think I believe why China refuse to go with Russia proposal

China is the country who has lent USA most money and they have a lot of money "tied" in USA.

I don't think it is in China's interest to see their money go down the drain.

Markus

Look also at western investments in China and the other way around.
Don't think china wants to waste all the time and effort for nothing.

[Jimbuna]

MONEY makes the world go around.

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

MONEY makes the world go around.

But there was no need to make a song and dance about it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

@ Skybird, very interesting post you wrote.

I think I believe why China refuse to go with Russia proposal

China is the country who has lent USA most money and they have a lot of money "tied" in USA.

I don't think it is in China's interest to see their money go down the drain.

Markus

You missed my point. In the past they have refused the Russian proposal. They they woulkd again, is in doubt, for they prepare obviously to take over form the dollar. What the West and America - and you - perceive as them being vulnerable due to their stockpiles of American paper stuff, may it be dollars or bonds, to me is a strategy to slowly constructing the economic equivalent to a very huge nuclear bomb. Like Putin calculated Russian economic costs versus gaining the Crimea, and commander sin war caalcuater own losses versus gaining victory in battle, the Chinese may calculate that it is worth it.

BTW, the Chinese buy gold and Western economic key assets and hightech companies like crazy. They now hold probbaly over 10,000 tons in gold - enough for founding a gold currency. Actually they buy even more gold, but only a frac tion of their buyings goes into the state'S treausry, much also is for private jewelry, collectors, and industry.

The Chinese want global dominance, and America stands in their way. Go figure. And their primary way of conquest has always been not military war, but trade, and fiscal treaties. That is what made the ancient Chinese empires great, and overwhelmingly rich.

If it gives them what they want, they will swallow the losses they suffer form a dollar collapse, and push the button to start it. You should not forget that every week they already loose billions and billions due to the devaluing policy of the FED. And for some reason that remains to be an American secret, Ameria seriously thinks they will continue to just accept these enormous losses at their own cost until the end of time.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MH

Look also at western investments in China and the other way around.
Don't think china wants to waste all the time and effort for nothing.

It already has what it wanted most, as German companies can sing a song. They got the know-how, and falling numbers in production facilities ordered by them mean that now they start to not just build products, but they production tools themselves. Only few critical items they still cannot produce themselves, and need to import for sure. Regarding their military technology, you have plenty of knowhow there now, a stunning ability to steal and copy (cyber espionage), and - different to Russia - the economical basis to pump all money needed into the military research and production that is needed, while Russia needs to watch its bills more carefully. Since military conquest never has been the primary chpoice of their expoansions in the past,m again their pirmary tool of warfare was, is and will be fincial and economic war.

I would say they have established plenty of bridheheads in our countries, and Africa, increasingly in South America as well. The next step will be to drive America out of control of international institutions controlling the internaitopnal patterns of currency flows, like the word bank, the IMF, and the options Ameica can benefit of by having most deals on resources and almost all oil deals done in dollar. Therefore, destrying the dollar dominance is a priority for them. They will not shy away from doing so just because of a minor blowback.

Once again: its all about Realpolitik. Their own credit bubble they allowed to grow in an effort to speed up their preparations, is a bigger threat to them than a collapsing dollar regime.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I know where you're coming from with your concern Skybird, but I think that if America does decide to take itself out of the European picture (and honestly, who can blame it with the abuse that has been hurled its way by Europeans over the past fifty years?) and Russia and China decide to seek closer ties (and again, who can blame them? Russia was snubbed by Europe and America so it turns to the only other partner it has, the PRC) then the only way that we can present a credible deterrant to any thoughts of Russian expansion in Europe either militarily or politically is through a united front, and the only united front in Europe is the EU.

When freedom gets destroyed and we end in an increasingly totalitarian regime, then it matters little who did that to us, Brussels and lobbyists, or a foreign conquerer. Also, you ignore the ammount by which every state untoilt oday plays fould and villates already existing treaties that would bring European states more into line over certain areas of common interest, most states conspirate and erode to bypass rules and treaties that hinders their self-percpetion to blossom. France, Britain, Germany, Greece, Italy and the others - they all have special interests and demands and think it is okay that they cheat the others, use their positive assets to blackmail the others to allow a breaking of rules, and so on. I sometimes do not know whether I should like that, or not.

Naturally this will be abused, just as the original ideals behind the EEC were abused, just as the post-wall agreements with Russia were abused, but equally alone and scattered we cannot present a credible political power, the days of the Empires are long gone, we individually do not have the industry or economy to be a rival to the likes of China, Russia or the US.

And this is what we maybe need to accept. Some years ago, when the financial crisis broke out openly, the Indian prime minister or a minster of the Indian Cabinet of that time, I forgot who it was, answerd a question by a Western diplomat what the West should do, with this disarming frankness and directness (and he did not mean it unfriendly or triumphantly at all): he said "You in the West now will need to learn to be poor." Some of the elder statesmen that still live today, also occassionaly hinted at that the time when the West could tell the rest of the world what to do, and to live by its rules, are over. I really think we should say farewell to this concept of thinking of ourselves that we must be the saviors of the planet and that others get blinded by our shiny ideals. Nobody gets blinded by our ideals anymore, and often we make the experience that our ideals and values get rightout refused and thrown after us. India does not listen any longer. China does not. Russia - surprise - does not. The Middle East does not. South America increasingly found its own voice. And africa is a playground of the heavyweights in international politics, and ripped by many tribal wars , and wars about controlling resources.

Militarily, we cannot defend against that loss of weight we suffer from in the world. Also, demographically, native Europeans are in decline, compared to the global population.

A military union controlled by the EU just will bring Burssel into more control that people have no counter control over, if not by rules and treaties, than Brussel will grab that influence through the backdoor, by having heads of governments conspirating (?) with its interests. The show gets run like that all the time anyway. It is a politila elite accumulating more and more power and control, and claiming more and more submission by the people, while not allowing checks and balances. Just look at this damn free trade treaty the now dow between the eU and the US. The US heavily benefits from it, while European consumers have heavy risks and losses from it, it all is done in total secrecy, gets negotiated behind locked doors, and governments in Europe try to hide all continent of the treaty from their own parliaments - which nevertheless should weave it though without being told about the content, and reflecting about the dangerous implications. This agreement is not about "free trade", but the opposite of it, it widens the rights of monopolists, allows monopolists and corporations to sue governments threatening to limit their profits by laws for better environment protection or health protection, and aims at destroying the free market and free trading that it claims to guarantee, also it wants to impose inferior US consumer protection standards on all Europeans and wants to enforce market accesses for critical products that in the past has been refused to be given permission to be sold on European markets, over health and safety concerns, and others.

And an criminal political elite like this, that sells its own people and for the people'S disadvantage, and that wants to save its own privileges in the face of troubleful times ahead, this amok running elite you want to give more powers and tools of influence and control?

No, I do not accept that, and instead argue for a lowering of our claims and standards regarding the role we want to play in the world. We must not and cannot play a domiant role anymore, our powerbasis is too eroded for that, and I do not want that to be abused as an excuse to help dictatorship being erected. It will come by itself anyway, all socialism leads to tyranny, necessarily - but at least I can refuse to actively help it and speed it up. We have had this kind of thinking, strong state and united power in few hands. It did not work too well last time (Warsaw Pact), and not the time before (Third Reich).

that leaves me outside any options that could materialise, and I know that. Libertarianism is dead. Freedom is dead. (And I would argue that in Germany it never has had the chance to form a tradition anyway, like it had in England). It has the right thinking, and provides the correct diagnosis for the present diseases. But in this corrupted, FUBARed world, it is up against overwhelming odds. That's why I never am optimistic about the future. The future I forsee, is not bright. Not for Europe, and not for the world.

I think that there will be a day soon where Europe will come to a fork in the road, probably around the time that the US economy receives another nasty hiccup and we are not prepared for it. The choice will be thus, split up and return to the Europe of old, warring, bickering, easy prey for the superpowers around us, or consolidate into a superstate in order to keep Europe relevant on the world stage, and this choice will set up the new century of global politics.

There are no superpowers around us, just stronger powers. Superpowers implies a level of dominance that there can be no second superpower, even dzuring the cold war, there were no "two superpowers". For some time America believed it raised to the level of a superpower after it considered russia "defeated", but that was just a short moment of calm before the storm. Its limits of power were demonstrated just short time later - and repeatedly.

"Europe" to me always necessarily implies the plural. And the bickering states, the chodlish Kinergarden of states, always has been there, and is now, just almost covered by a thin layer of blue paint. In side the EU, the rules get constantly broken by players. Also, there is strong emotional power in the regions and local places around Europe, more and more people have enough of this corrupted EU, and claim greater independence form Brussel, or even their own central states. People do not want to get ruled by an imperial central govenrment, at best they support it for the most only becasue they hpe for moeny raining fromn heaven if they do. Big scepticism is spreading, and it is not only deserved, but fully justified.

So, we would be qwell advised to tone down our lectures tot eh rest of the world, we shgoulkd secure the ablity to make any miliztary attack on our countries an extremnely costly operastion for the aggressor, and beyond that - like America seems to do - not exlpand any firther, but deflate, and olretty much so, sticking to our lands, reducing the insane levels of moeny wasting in our social wellfare systems, get a different soical and cultural climate established where we again foucs more on own repsonsibility and responsibility for our family, instead of leaving both to the state, and we need to find answers for the dramatic demographic chnage in our over-aging societies. Quantity cannot be our way anymore, but quality. Many of our problems are not just strucural problems, but problems of a devastated culture, a lack of humanistic education that can differ populistic nonsense from matters that really count. That we have so many elite benefitting from leaving out problems unadressed, and even deepening them, does not really help, of course.

Ah, so much would be needed to chnage. And so little we will dare to do. there is no solution, and i think no happy end to all this. We will be like many civilizations before us: glorious rise, fantastic climax, silent fall. It seems man is not made for creating something that really lasts.

Ironically, religions understand what I mean better than most others. Of course relgous institutions only are after their own power interests, but I mean people that feel like being religious, while keeping away from the religious mainstream and the institutions and dogmas. It is funny that there once were a Franciscan monk here in my hometown, and even in Teheran a cleric, both knew that I were atheist and (at that time) called myself a Buddhist - and nevertheless we found that both of these and I were much closer to reach other in thinking, than I am to many others, atheists, and the mainstream opinion holders anyway.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

But there was no need to make a song and dance about it.

Life is a cabaret old chum.

Me? I prefer cabernet.

[TarJak]

This bloke raises some interesting points, though his last sentence should have been better edited. http://www.smh.com.au/comment/ukrain...320-355ow.html

[Oberon]

Belbak airfield being assaulted by Russian/pro-Russian forces, BTR-80 has knocked down the front gate and an ambulance has arrived. A UAZ has also just appeared. It seems that someone attempted to smash the camera from the ground a few moments before the BTR-80 went for the gate but failed.



EDIT: Camera now torn down by Russian/pro-Russian forces.



One person injured during the assault and shots were fired.

[Oberon]

The Russian Navy has taken control of Ukraines only submarine, a Foxtrot class.

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

MONEY makes the world go around.

Money just makes me go down the block to nearest ATM machine

[Dread Knot]