Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine - Page 6

Dread Knot · 02-20-14, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Ruptly news seems to have the right idea, no-one will dare shoot at these girls:

Whatever they're shooting with doesn't seem to mind this variety of bulletproof vest. One protester died wearing this one today. If the person behind the trigger is female, I don't know if gender will protect you either.

Dread Knot · 02-20-14, 09:39 AM

About half the Ukrainian Olympic Team has quit Sochi and headed for home. Make me wonder if the real hammer will fall after the Olympics.

Skybird · 02-20-14, 10:31 AM

What has boiled over these days is not just an internal Ukrainian conflict.

What has broken out here is a conflict over the question who will dominate Europe in the future - Russia or the EU.

With the US having entered a phase of both reshifting from Europe to SE Asia and thus loosing interest in Europe and the ME, while at the same time becoming increasingly isolationistic for a whole variety of practical and mental reasons, and on the other side of the pond the EU and Russia being unable to truly reign over the other, what we maybe see these days will be labelled in historic books as the beginning of a new ice age and cold war between Russia and Europe.

The EU looks like monkeys riding on donkeys now. I like that sight.

MH · 02-20-14, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

The EU looks like monkeys riding on donkeys now. I like that sight.

I just wonder how would you like EU deal with the issue?

Oberon · 02-20-14, 12:03 PM

The thing is, the EU and NATO has, over the past twenty years, encroached ever closer on Russias sphere of power. It's a bit like China buying out South America, Russia has little choice but to perceive this as an attempt to push western influence on what has been traditionally Russian territory for the past century.
So really the main tugs of war are going to be, and indeed have been, over the former Pact states, in particular those on the border with Russia, Georgia, Belarus, Ukraine, and possibly Latvia and Estonia (although I think that Russia isn't too bothered about letting them slip).
I don't think that it is so much a case of who is going to control Europe, but more a case of who is going to control Eastern Europe, and that's a 'battle' that started in 1989, and this is just another part of it.
Personally though, I don't see the EU has any cards to play in this situation, Russia could roll a legion of T-72s into Kiev in ten hours flat, and there's nothing that NATO or the EU could do to stop him...all the EU has is soft power, and since a Ukrainian civil war would screw most nations around the Ukraine over (the Polish economy is already wobbling because of the Ukrainian chaos) neither side wants it to go that far, and so really, the only thing the EU can do is bleat while Putin conducts his business.
It's a Realpolitik thing, like David Cameron with Syria, there's nothing that you can do, but you have to pretend that you're making the effort otherwise certain pressure groups will be up in arms that "you're not defending democracy (TM)" and so on and so forth.

Catfish · 02-20-14, 12:05 PM

Whatever the EU does, it will be criticised, ploughed under and stomped into the ground by Skybird.

But, as we found out after this american 'F.. the EU' statement, the US is also deeply involved in it, and they do not want the EU to succeed.
I just wonder what Russia will say if the US influence on the Ukraine becomes a bit more hardware-like.

Oberon · 02-20-14, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Whatever the EU does, it will be criticised, ploughed under and stomped into the ground by Skybird.

But, as we found out after this american 'F.. the EU' statement, the US is also deeply involved in it, and they do not want the EU to succeed.
I just wonder what Russia will say if the US influence on the Ukraine becomes a bit more hardware-like.

They will probably invest in their own hardware into the Ukraine, most likely T-80 shaped.

It's a three way power sphere battle, with each side wanting to be the one that takes the political prestige from 'solving' the crisis. However since all three sides are pulling in different directions, nothing has been done and the situation has gotten out of control.

EDIT: Unconfirmed reports indicate that top officials are fleeing Kiev:

Quote:

Unconfirmed reports that some of the top officials and their families have been leaving Kiev. Journalist Hanna Babynets from independent Hromadske TV reported this from Kiev's Zhulyany Airport: "Three planes have taken off in the past five minutes. It's very likely that they are carrying cash: suitcases have been unloaded under guard from armoured vans usually used to transport cash... scheduled flights have been suspended, the airport administration says."

TarJak · 02-20-14, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

The EU looks like monkeys riding on donkeys now. I like that sight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MH

I just wonder how would you like EU deal with the issue?

I wonder how Skybird would feel when the Russians decide it's time to get rid of the monkeys and he's under the donkey.

With the Ukrainian police regrouping I reckon we'll see another move made on the protests overnight.

Jimbuna · 02-20-14, 04:07 PM

Sanctions are being put in place as a matter of urgency...

Quote:

European Union foreign ministers have agreed to impose sanctions on Ukrainian officials "responsible for violence and excessive force".

In a statement, they said targeted sanctions including asset freezes and visa bans would be introduced "as a matter of urgency".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710

Oberon · 02-20-14, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

I wonder how Skybird would feel when the Russians decide it's time to get rid of the monkeys and he's under the donkey.

I dunno, I mean, think about it...Homosexuality is discouraged, Muslim extremists shot on sight, laws depend on either who you know or how much you have, and in many places government control is either non-existed or exported to the local mafia.

I think he'd love it.

TarJak · 02-20-14, 04:24 PM

You may well be right. A good dose of the old school DDR with a splash of capitalism to add extra spice. Might just work for him.

I for one welcome Skybird's new Russian overlords.

Mind you it's easy for me to say from an armchair that's not between a rock and a hard place.

Skybird · 02-20-14, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MH

I just wonder how would you like EU deal with the issue?

I have no preferences regarding the EU doing this or that. Make the EU a thing that does not exist, and I'd be a bit happier in this life.

Yanukovich's gang may play the card of physical violence, but his attitude towards power and owning his people is not different from that of our political feudal masters in the West. It'S just that the violence to control the minds and thoughts, motivations and doings of people in the west are controlled more subtle than with bullets and rubber sticks. To me, they both are just the same wicked breed with the same feudal self-conception, all of them.

What have you expected to hear from me? That I suddenly take back all my complex and comprehensive criticism and hostility towards our political regimes, just because an Eastern bully starts to shoot at people? In the end, the Ukrainian fight is the Ukrainians' fight, not ours. We should learn to realise the problems that we have ourselves - and that are constantly accumulating, until they will overwhelm us one not too distant day.

Skybird · 02-20-14, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

I dunno, I mean, think about it...Homosexuality is discouraged, Muslim extremists shot on sight, laws depend on either who you know or how much you have, and in many places government control is either non-existed or exported to the local mafia.

I think he'd love it.

Bad dope this evening? You have not understood any significant part of what I tried to explain to you on several occasions, if this is all that you can summarise it as. The waste of time was at my cost, then.

Onkel Neal · 02-20-14, 05:30 PM

Aww, why is this happening? Come on, Russia, you really think Ukraine being closely associated with Europe is so bad? It's great. Peace, prosperity, stability. Why not join the party, it wouldn't kill you. I cannot understand how nations have so much trouble building relationships that are in their best interests. It's not like the West is "encircling" a communist country, isn't Russia open to trade, travel, free speech, political elections (except for Putin)? What's their problem? Most of the Russians want to be American or European anyway. Hell, give a Russian a ticket to the US and get out of his way, he'll run you over.

Oberon · 02-20-14, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Bad dope this evening? You have not understood any significant part of what I tried to explain to you on several occasions, if this is all that you can summarise it as. The waste of time was at my cost, then.

The dope is never bad, the humour, perhaps so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Aww, why is this happening? Come on, Russia, you really think Ukraine being closely associated with Europe is so bad? It's great. Peace, prosperity, stability. Why not join the party, it wouldn't kill you. I cannot understand how nations have so much trouble building relationships that are in their best interests. It's not like the West is "encircling" a communist country, isn't Russia open to trade, travel, free speech, political elections (except for Putin)? What's their problem? Most of the Russians want to be American or European anyway. Hell, give a Russian a ticket to the US and get out of his way, he'll run you over.

Not that you'd accept them, immigration concerns and that.

02-20-14, 10:31 AM	#78
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,495 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	What has boiled over these days is not just an internal Ukrainian conflict. What has broken out here is a conflict over the question who will dominate Europe in the future - Russia or the EU. With the US having entered a phase of both reshifting from Europe to SE Asia and thus loosing interest in Europe and the ME, while at the same time becoming increasingly isolationistic for a whole variety of practical and mental reasons, and on the other side of the pond the EU and Russia being unable to truly reign over the other, what we maybe see these days will be labelled in historic books as the beginning of a new ice age and cold war between Russia and Europe. The EU looks like monkeys riding on donkeys now. I like that sight. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-20-14, 04:24 PM	#86
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	You may well be right. A good dose of the old school DDR with a splash of capitalism to add extra spice. Might just work for him. I for one welcome Skybird's new Russian overlords. Mind you it's easy for me to say from an armchair that's not between a rock and a hard place. Last edited by TarJak; 02-20-14 at 04:36 PM.

02-20-14, 05:30 PM	#89
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,284 Downloads: 534 Uploads: 224	Aww, why is this happening? Come on, Russia, you really think Ukraine being closely associated with Europe is so bad? It's great. Peace, prosperity, stability. Why not join the party, it wouldn't kill you. I cannot understand how nations have so much trouble building relationships that are in their best interests. It's not like the West is "encircling" a communist country, isn't Russia open to trade, travel, free speech, political elections (except for Putin)? What's their problem? Most of the Russians want to be American or European anyway. Hell, give a Russian a ticket to the US and get out of his way, he'll run you over. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

02-20-14, 09:39 AM	#77
Dread Knot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hawkeye State Highlands Posts: 1,288 Downloads: 84 Uploads: 0	About half the Ukrainian Olympic Team has quit Sochi and headed for home. Make me wonder if the real hammer will fall after the Olympics.

02-20-14, 12:03 PM	#80
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	The thing is, the EU and NATO has, over the past twenty years, encroached ever closer on Russias sphere of power. It's a bit like China buying out South America, Russia has little choice but to perceive this as an attempt to push western influence on what has been traditionally Russian territory for the past century. So really the main tugs of war are going to be, and indeed have been, over the former Pact states, in particular those on the border with Russia, Georgia, Belarus, Ukraine, and possibly Latvia and Estonia (although I think that Russia isn't too bothered about letting them slip). I don't think that it is so much a case of who is going to control Europe, but more a case of who is going to control Eastern Europe, and that's a 'battle' that started in 1989, and this is just another part of it. Personally though, I don't see the EU has any cards to play in this situation, Russia could roll a legion of T-72s into Kiev in ten hours flat, and there's nothing that NATO or the EU could do to stop him...all the EU has is soft power, and since a Ukrainian civil war would screw most nations around the Ukraine over (the Polish economy is already wobbling because of the Ukrainian chaos) neither side wants it to go that far, and so really, the only thing the EU can do is bleat while Putin conducts his business. It's a Realpolitik thing, like David Cameron with Syria, there's nothing that you can do, but you have to pretend that you're making the effort otherwise certain pressure groups will be up in arms that "you're not defending democracy (TM)" and so on and so forth.

02-20-14, 12:05 PM	#81
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Whatever the EU does, it will be criticised, ploughed under and stomped into the ground by Skybird. But, as we found out after this american 'F.. the EU' statement, the US is also deeply involved in it, and they do not want the EU to succeed. I just wonder what Russia will say if the US influence on the Ukraine becomes a bit more hardware-like.