Question about "Bold" (SBT)

[Kapitän]

Fellow Kaleun's,

Just wanted to check in with you and learn what your experience is when deploying a Bold.

I read in a pretty reliable source that historically, Bold1-3, could be deployed at a depth from 15-25m and had a effective period of 30-45min.

Bold-4 was actually effective at 120m after 7min., and at 160m after 10min., if at all.

Bold-5 was designed to work up to 200m, but was never deployed.

I believe in Sh3, the different versions basically work at any depth, from 3-5min (Bold-1) to 10-12min (Bold-4).

I'm just wondering if you can confirm this and how you handle this part of the sim.

Many thanks!

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

Fellow Kaleun's,

Just wanted to check in with you and learn what your experience is when deploying a Bold.

I read in a pretty reliable source that historically, Bold1-3, could be deployed at a depth from 15-25m and had a effective period of 30-45min.

Bold-4 was actually effective at 120m after 7min., and at 160m after 10min., if at all.

Bold-5 was designed to work up to 200m, but was never deployed.

I believe in Sh3, the different versions basically work at any depth, from 3-5min (Bold-1) to 10-12min (Bold-4).

I'm just wondering if you can confirm this and how you handle this part of the sim.

Many thanks!

No idea of the actual working specs, but I use them for cover when depth charges are near.
The depth charge noise should already do that but it's one of many things not in the game.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

No idea of the actual working specs, but I use them for cover when depth charges are near.
The depth charge noise should already do that but it's one of many things not in the game.

The darkwraith made a mod which causes the depth charges to cause water disturbances. I use it with SH 4, I believe it was for SH 3 originally. Works great. I edited the noise so it was not as effective as it seemed to nerf the AI a bit too much.

Not sure if its the same in SH 4 but the BOLD does not emit noise by default to confuse hydrophones (has to be adjusted to via S3D) but does cause a disturbance for enemy active sonar to focus on.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

The darkwraith made a mod which causes the depth charges to cause water disturbances. I use it with SH 4, I believe it was for SH 3 originally. Works great. I edited the noise so it was not as effective as it seemed to nerf the AI a bit too much.

Not sure if its the same in SH 4 but the BOLD does not emit noise by default to confuse hydrophones (has to be adjusted to via S3D) but does cause a disturbance for enemy active sonar to focus on.

Thanks, but iirc that mod causes ctds in Sh3. There is one or more made for Sh3 but I'm not worried about it; the escorts aren't good enough to need it anyway.

[Kapitän]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

No idea of the actual working specs, but I use them for cover when depth charges are near.
The depth charge noise should already do that but it's one of many things not in the game.

So, you basically, just eject a Bold, to emulate the water disturbance of DC's in the water?

[Kapitän]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Thanks, but iirc that mod causes ctds in Sh3. There is one or more made for Sh3 but I'm not worried about it; the escorts aren't good enough to need it anyway.

My experience is, that as of 1944, once a ASW vessel has located you, you're toast.

How do you go about lossing them (not sure I read it i nthe other post)?

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

So, you basically, just eject a Bold, to emulate the water disturbance of DC's in the water?

No, what the "BOLD" did, was it contained certain chem's, inside of it... was perforated so that water could get into the decoy container... & once water hit those chem's... started a chain reaction... that created a crap ton of bubbles... (If you've ever watched "The hunt for Red October", is a couple of times in that movie, that decoys were used, by modern subs. 2 times, that I recall of... once with 1 scene with the Red October & another time with the... "U.S.S. Dallas" aka the famous sub broaching the surface scene.)

Think that some later versions had some... recorded sound that was to make the enemy DD or DE think they had a lock on to the sub... that started not long after the chem reaction started... iirc... has been some time, since I looked at the particulars on them, to be frank about it.

The basis for it, is not in mimicking a DC explosion, but... to actively decoy the hunter from its true prey... the U-boat (or later on, any submarine... for that matter... but, those are way more... sophisticated than the early on decoys used by the Kreigsmarine, were... )



M. M.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

So, you basically, just eject a Bold, to emulate the water disturbance of DC's in the water?

Yes.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

My experience is, that as of 1944, once a ASW vessel has located you, you're toast.

How do you go about lossing them (not sure I read it i nthe other post)?

- Go very very deep; 230 or more.
- Silent running always on, one knot, any aspect work you like to use.
I use Stiebler's silent running mod so the boat slowly sinks (wish it was faster to discourage the use of silent running always on, but anyway....).
I use this sinking to my advantage and allow the boat to sink as far as I can get away with without imploding.
- Once you feel the need to the rise in depth, do so quickly, even flank speed if desired. This is the only time you change speed from one knot. Doesn't matter if they hear you, you'll lose them again per above. But don't go above 230 or so. Sink from there again.
If possible, I like to do these rises right after releasing a bold and/or the dropping escort is moving away so at least it can't hear me. But I never do a rise until I reach my depth limit per above.
- Release a bold when any charges are exploding (only) close by. Pick and choose; you don't/can't have to release one every time.
- Set a course away from the convoy to help shake the escorts over time. Preferably 180 from the convoy course but anything will help.
- Sometimes when I know charges are dropped I'll alter course, hard port or starboard, but still only at one knot. Once they start exploding I center the rudder.
- Rinse/repeat the sinking/rising, etc. until you've escaped. After the first sinking, you'll know your depth limit more or less so just use that as a base to rise again.

You'll escape the vast majority of the time. You may take some damage from a lucky hit but even that isn't often.
I.e., last night I ran into an NYGM 1944 convoy with an escort carrier and it's hunter-killer group attached. Was able to go to 270 meters before needing to rise each time, back up to around 230 and sink again.
Took a bit of game time but escaped from the hunter-killer escorts, though was damaged (hull was orange on H.sie's damage indicator this time with a lucky hit, so had to return to base.) but I escaped.
I do this successfully on a routine basis in both NYGM and GWX, hope it helps. Also, don't be afraid to use minor tc. I.e., when I know there's a window of time, I'll use 2x or 4x to speed things up. Never above that though until you've escaped.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Mad Mardigan

No, what the "BOLD" did, was it contained certain chem's, inside of it... was perforated so that water could get into the decoy container... & once water hit those chem's... started a chain reaction... that created a crap ton of bubbles... (If you've ever watched "The hunt for Red October", is a couple of times in that movie, that decoys were used, by modern subs. 2 times, that I recall of... once with 1 scene with the Red October & another time with the... "U.S.S. Dallas" aka the famous sub broaching the surface scene.)

Think that some later versions had some... recorded sound that was to make the enemy DD or DE think they had a lock on to the sub... that started not long after the chem reaction started... iirc... has been some time, since I looked at the particulars on them, to be frank about it.

The basis for it, is not in mimicking a DC explosion, but... to actively decoy the hunter from its true prey... the U-boat (or later on, any submarine... for that matter... but, those are way more... sophisticated than the early on decoys used by the Kreigsmarine, were... )



M. M.

That is how the real version worked but that doesn't exist in the game, hence why I use them as I do.

[John Pancoast]

Kapitan, the tactics I listed are ones I use after playing AOD over the decades though it is harder to escape in it vs. SH3 for various reasons, some of which are below. It's easier to do/provides more escapes in SH3 vs. AOD.

I.e., in AOD when you go that deep, you have two choices: 1. Not have silent running on and your compressed air/pumps will automatically eject the water coming in so you can maintain your depth to a certain extent; even this has it's limits of being useful and the Chief will sometimes tell you you have to rise because the air/pumps can't keep up.
Besides not being on silent running, the problem with this tactic is that unlike in SH3 using compressed air in a blow in AOD makes noise that attracts escorts and of course it also lowers your compressed air amount that is left to use until you surface and recharge it.
2. Use silent running but then water comes in/you sink much quicker than in SH3 even with Stiebler's silent running patch.
The only way to get rid of it is #1 above or go to 180 meters or less, both of which can cause trouble.

[stork100]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

My experience is, that as of 1944, once a ASW vessel has located you, you're toast.

How do you go about lossing them?

This is my experience also (GWX). I like to play 1945 campaigns sometimes, but find that once I get a Hunter Killer or escort group on me I'm finished. Of course, by that year they can ping you well below your crush depth so there's not really much point in going deep other than for evasive manouvering.

The Bolds do help a bit. I usually eject one after a depth charge run when I'm making a big manuever. In doing so I'll go ahead flank and dive, trying to build up as much speed as possible, so that when I go back to ahead slow I still have plenty of momentum to coast as far as possible. Also a slight course change of about 30 degrees - no more because it causes too much drag. My goal is to try to get out of their circle of immediate detection, but I've never made it yet that late in the war. Once they've found me again, I'll climb back up in preparation for my next chance. I play with map updates off, so I always have very limited information and situational awareness.

I have also adjusted the asdic min surface values in my install somewhat like Stiebler/NYGM, so that the profile of the boat has an effect of how effective their asdic is depending on the angle. This is quite fun to play with earlier in the war as you can avoid diving deep to evade and mess with them to an extent. But late war it's next to useless I find.

So yes, I find the Bolds useful to distract them for a bit, maybe a minute or so, but then they find you again. Depth, silent running, profile, all never seems to make much difference in late war. Still fun though and I appreciate the challenge. Maybe one day I'll learn the secret.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by stork100

This is my experience also (GWX). I like to play 1945 campaigns sometimes, but find that once I get a Hunter Killer or escort group on me I'm finished. Of course, by that year they can ping you well below your crush depth so there's not really much point in going deep other than for evasive manouvering.

The Bolds do help a bit. I usually eject one after a depth charge run when I'm making a big manuever. In doing so I'll go ahead flank and dive, trying to build up as much speed as possible, so that when I go back to ahead slow I still have plenty of momentum to coast as far as possible. Also a slight course change of about 30 degrees - no more because it causes too much drag. My goal is to try to get out of their circle of immediate detection, but I've never made it yet that late in the war. Once they've found me again, I'll climb back up in preparation for my next chance. I play with map updates off, so I always have very limited information and situational awareness.

I have also adjusted the asdic min surface values in my install somewhat like Stiebler/NYGM, so that the profile of the boat has an effect of how effective their asdic is depending on the angle. This is quite fun to play with earlier in the war as you can avoid diving deep to evade and mess with them to an extent. But late war it's next to useless I find.

So yes, I find the Bolds useful to distract them for a bit, maybe a minute or so, but then they find you again. Depth, silent running, profile, all never seems to make much difference in late war. Still fun though and I appreciate the challenge. Maybe one day I'll learn the secret.

Try what I listed above. Works great for me, any time of the war.

[stork100]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Try what I listed above. Works great for me, any time of the war.

For some reason I had considered 220m to be near the limit for a Type VII, but I did a test and you're quite right about 230m without damage. That's without Commander's random crush depth of course. Thanks!

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by stork100

For some reason I had considered 220m to be near the limit for a Type VII, but I did a test and you're quite right about 230m without damage. That's without Commander's random crush depth of course. Thanks!

I use the random depth feature of Commander too, fwiw.