LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod

[Gorshkov]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Care you provide us with a source, btw?

Yes, I have found recently some interesting data in Polish military monthly "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" (what means "New Military Technology" in English). They published one big article about "Oscar" class submarines with respect to "Kursk" incident a few years ago. As we know "Kursk" was armed with USET-80s during disaster. That is why author described USET-80 characteristics in this article as follows (my own translation):

"USET-80 torpedoes were introduced into service in early 1980s. They are electrically powered with Zn-Mg batteries as their energy source. They have range of 18 km and speed of 50 knots. USET-80 is equipped with active-passive acoustic sensor, wake-homing device and it is also wire-guided. Torpedo warhead contains 200-300 kg of explosives. USET-80 torpedo can hit surface and subsurface targets up to 500 meters (other sources says up to 1000 meters) depth."

Besides, if USSR introduced first wire-guided torpedoes of TEST-68/TEST-71 types in the late 1960s, it is logical that USET-80 must be a lot better weapon than those in all aspects because it was created a decade later. Moreover USET-80 was a primary weapon of Soviet nuclear (not diesel!) submarines in 1980s and thus it is not possible USET-80 don't have wire guidance, which was a basic standard at those days. Maybe this torpedo can be fired without attached wire but for sure not only with such option!

PS. I personally suppose, USET-80 can sustain 50 kts speed at its maximum 18 km range! It is quite enough because modern submarines can't detect and engage each other on longer ranges. So, USET-80 is a formidable ASW weapon even now!

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

Yes, I have found recently some interesting data in Polish military monthly "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" (what means "New Military Technology" in English). They published one big article about "Oscar" class submarines with respect to "Kursk" incident a few years ago. As we know "Kursk" was armed with USET-80s during disaster. That is why author described USET-80 characteristics in this article as follows (my own translation):

"USET-80 torpedoes were introduced into service in early 1980s. They are electrically powered with Zn-Mg batteries as their energy source. They have range of 18 km and speed of 50 knots. USET-80 is equipped with active-passive acoustic sensor, wake-homing device and it is also wire-guided. Torpedo warhead contains 200-300 kg of explosives. USET-80 torpedo can hit surface and subsurface targets up to 500 meters (other sources says up to 1000 meters) depth."

Besides, if USSR introduced first wire-guided torpedoes of TEST-68/TEST-71 types in the late 1960s, it is logical that USET-80 must be a lot better weapon than those in all aspects because it was created a decade later. Moreover USET-80 was a primary weapon of Soviet nuclear (not diesel!) submarines in 1980s and thus it is not possible USET-80 don't have wire guidance, which was a basic standard at those days. Maybe this torpedo can be fired without attached wire but for sure not only with such option!

PS. I personally suppose, USET-80 can sustain 50 kts speed at its maximum 18 km range! It is quite enough because modern submarines can't detect each other on longer ranges. So, USET-80 is a formidable ASW weapon even now!

It's not logical to conclude that a weapon made later in time will necesarily have all the features of a previous model. For example, the Mk54 does not have the depth capability that the Mk50 does.

My gut feeling is that the article made a mistake. I can't find any other source that says the USET-80 is wire guided. It seems that Russian torpedo development went along two tracks: the SET/USET line, which are not wire guided, and the TEST line, which is. (It looks like the UGST is part of the TEST family.)

Of course, if we find more non-classified sources saying the USET is wire guided, I could change my mind, but for now it seems the info out there overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that it is not wire guided.

[LuftWolf]

USET-80 is NOT wire-guided.

Bill, I assume you are too busy... BUT if you'd like to volunteer, I'm not turning away any SubSim member with standing.

Anyone who decides to take this on (this is directed at the general audience) needs to have three things 1) the time and patience to learn the process and actually do it 2) an understanding of how various database parameters influence the sim (this is fairly straightforward if you have someone to ask specific questions to... like me ) and 3) competance with modern naval weapons so that the person in question can independantly adjust values when taking data from the SCXIIc database without clearing each and every little parameter transposition with me.

In this sense, the person who decides to do this is really going to be creating a mod for which he takes the credit... even copying things from the SCXIIc database creates enough opportunities for judgement that it is not simply a bunch of copied values, the previous database is merely the most complete reference for the platforms that must be added, BUT NOT a 1-1 storehouse of everything that needs to be done.

SO, this person must be able to make judgement calls that the community can be in a consensus about.

And so, this brings us to why I can't do it, or at least really don't want to. I have to do all this work, and then on top of that, before I even start, I have to get myself to a hobbiest level knowledge about this material. Once this is done, the excuse "well, that's the way it is in the stock database" will no longer fly... the data must be defensible, and given the sheer volumn of material, it will take me MONTHS of my own time just to do the research, and personally, I think this is time better spent on the the Advanced Weapons Mods, since I am the only person who can do that (since I have already done the doctrines and I'd hate to be the person that has to go back and figure out how my ADCAP doctrine works, for example).

So, I guess I'm putting it out there. I'm happy to do the ATC mods, but if you guys want some kind of SCX-type expansion of DW, someone else if probably going to have to volunteer to do it, unless you don't mind waiting for maybe a year or more for me to get around to it.

Also, the work on the ATC is on hold until I have the course set on this issue.

So, let's all sit down and work out a plan here.

Cheers,
David

[Gorshkov]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

USET-80 is NOT wire-guided.

No, it is!

[LuftWolf]

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTRussian_post-WWII.htm

While it does have a wake-homing mode that is not simulated in DW (yet), it is most definately not wire-guided.

Your source is the only one I've ever seen listing it as wire-guided, and given that it is a peripheral reference in a periodical about the Kursk (as opposed to a dedicated techincal reference), I'm not inclined to assign it a higher level of credibility than other sources.

Also, giving the USET-80 wire-guided capability would drastically alter the weapon balance on the Russian Kilos, making the TEST-71 completely redundant weapons, which is one of the reasons I'm not inclined to believe they are wireguided, because the Kilo submarine then would have no reason to carry the TEST-71, either in DW or in real life.

Cheers,
David

[Gorshkov]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Also, giving the USET-80 wire-guided capability would drastically alter the weapon balance on the Russian Kilos, making the TEST-71 completely redundant weapons, which is one of the reasons I'm not inclined to believe they are wireguided, because the Kilo submarine then would have no reason to carry the TEST-71, either in DW or in real life.

Funny deduction!

I have never heard that Russia ever sold abroad USET-80s along with Kilos. But because Kilos possess two wire-capable tubes it is logical move that Russia agreed to export them with older and much less capable TEST-71 torpedoes! So, export Chinese and Indian Kilos should be armed primary with universal TEST-71s in DW+LWAMI as it takes place in reality. In contrary Russian Kilos should possess wire-guided USET-80s and maybe wireless SET-65Ms.

Anyway I see a big mess in Kilos armament! I propose following solution:

- export Kilos armament: 53-65KE, truly universal TEST-71ME-NK, SET-53M (sci-fi Yu-8), maybe various "Club" versions.

- Russian Kilos armament: 53-65K, wireless SET-65M, wire-guided USET-80, no SS-N-15 and any other SUBROCs.

[LuftWolf]

Well, what you propose is both interesting and possible, given that the database object for the TEST-71 is actually different for the Russian and two types of Chinese Kilos.

Deleting weapons is not possible, so the SS-N-15 is going to stay, which I want anyway (I like giving players more options as opposed to less).

[Everyone wants to hate on the Yu-8... and I even see your point. Hell, I even agree with you. However... you can't say you don't like the idea of having that option on the Chinese Kilos when you are pressed to driving one. Besides, I have the cover of having my database timeframe set in 2012... and no one will critize a game like Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter for having "sci-fi" weapons, as you call them.]

I'm not yet ready to start a poll about this... I need to be more convinced the USET-80 is in fact wireguided.

Can anyone with some good reference materials try to dig up something on this? I'll see what I can find as well. :hmm:

Cheers,
David

[Gorshkov]

1. No way Soviets didn't introduce any new wire-guided torpedo like USET-80 during 20 years! Certainly not during Brezhnev's arms race era! USSR was developing simultaneously more than a hundred various weapon systems then! Besides in 1980s Soviet economy was more than a half of US economy. Now Russian GNP is less than one twentieth of US GNP!

2. Can in-game SET-65 be used on playable subs in LWAMI mod?

3. If SS-N-15 can't be removed from Kilos armament, players needn't use it!

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

1. No way Soviets didn't introduce any new wire-guided torpedo like USET-80 during 20 years! Certainly not during Brezhnev's arms race era! USSR was developing simultaneously more than a hundred various weapon systems then! Besides in 1980s Soviet economy was more than a half of US economy. Now Russian GNP is less than one twentieth of US GNP!

2. Can in-game SET-65 be used on playable subs in LWAMI mod?

3. If SS-N-15 can't be removed from Kilos armament, players needn't use it!

Honestly, the biggest reason I'm not inclined to believe that the USET-80 is not wireguided is because Thomas, the creator of the SCX mod database, did not include the USET-80 as wireguided, and he IS a real naval weapons hobbiest/expert.

If I were to make the USET-80 wireguided, the amount of criticism I would face from people who have been around would be volumninous.

Now, this is not necessarily a reason to do or not do anything, but it is an indication of the strength of the belief of this community that the USET-80 is, in fact, not wireguided.

I'm simply going to need more solid evidence than the polish magazine.

Cheers,
David

[Molon Labe]

You really don't gain much from wireguidance on a torp that only has a range of about 10nm. It makes sense to me that they put their efforts into the UGST instead.

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

You really don't gain much from wireguidance on a torp that only has a range of about 10nm. It makes sense to me that they put their efforts into the UGST instead.

Actually, Molon, that statement is contradictory.

It would make much more sense to say: "you don't really gain much from giving a torpedo a range of greater than 10nm if the weapon only has a guidance wire that is 10nm long."

In real life, Russian weapons use a wire-guidance system that puts 13.5nm of wire in the weapon and 2.5nm of wire in the submarine itself (according to Amizaur's sources). As you can see, the max range of the TEST-71 is exactly the length of its wire. The Soviet weapons designers only allocated space inside the weapon to enough batteries to send it to its theoretically maximum effective range, which is where the wire runs out.

Cheers,
David

[Molon Labe]

Contradictory my ass. You're the one assuming that you can't hit anything once the wire is cut.

For a target less than 10nm away, it's unlikely that the target will be able to clear datum effectively, so wire guidance is mostly unnecessary, especially if you give the weapons a bit of a spread.

For distant targets, the utility of using multiple weapons is limited (unless you're using stock DW and using a helluva lot of weapons, but I'm talking more about RL) since there is so much more area the target can run to. Wireguidance is key so that the weapons fired can be steered to intercept the target on its evasion course, once it is known--which should happen before the torp runs out of wire.

[LuftWolf]

In DW terms, I think what you are saying makes a bit of sense (although not much), but in RL terms, I think you are way off the mark.

Cheers,
David

[Gorshkov]

Anyway I must say that Kilos with their present crappy armament are very ineffective platforms both in DW and RL! Lack of TA, limited speed, torpedoes beat range-speed performance make Kilos no match for any nuclear sub and military surface vessel until very short distance and collision course emerge.
Maybe equipping at least Russian Improved Kilos with UGST torpedoes could change this hopeless situation? Otherwise Kilo can be only civilian shipping littorial "happy hunter".

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

Anyway I must say that Kilos with their present crappy armament are very ineffective platforms both in DW and RL! Lack of TA, limited speed, torpedoes beat range-speed performance make Kilos no match for any nuclear sub and military surface vessel until very short distance and collision course emerge.
Maybe equipping at least Russian Improved Kilos with UGST torpedoes could change this hopeless situation? Otherwise Kilo can be only civilian shipping littorial "happy hunter".

The Kilo isn't good for much besides attacking merchants in RL, unless you're dealing with badly mucked up acoustic conditions in an area where warships must pass through. DW+LW/Ami seems to do a pretty good job representing that.