The future of Submarine simulations

[Blacklight]

I seriously don't want ANOTHER Uboat sim. I'm so tired of World War II. Give me a nice Cold War subsim. I enjoy Dangerous Waters a LOT more than the Silent Hunter games and play it a LOT more. Cold War subsims are a totally untapped market! EVERYONE does World War II sims. I'm sick of them. I want my modern or Cold War era weapons systems and platforms!

My holy grails right now are 1. A new "Dangerous Waters", and 2. A new "Harpoon" (that actually works and isn't a buggy mess).

That said, I think that the game industry is only focused on "Mass Market" console games or apps for iPhones now. The tendancy now is to leave the PC's behind. PC game releases are getting rarer and rarer compared to console and smartphone games.

The other problem is, sadly, that I don't see us getting much in the way of "new blood" into the hardcore sim community. The younger people who we need to flow into the community are, for the most part, not attracted to games that are slow moving, and especially not ones where they have to read a manual to learn to play. Do you know how many people my Dangerous Waters manual has scared off from even giving the game a try? I'd love to give society the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't see the younger generation, that we need to bolster the community, having anywhere NEAR the attention span that's needed to play these games. I just don't see it.

This period that we're in now kind of feels like the way that the role playing game community dried up in the 90's. After a while, when I would go to a role playing game convention, it was just a bunch of us old guys there. There was a period where the younger people just weren't flowing in to keep it alive. Sadly, I see this happening with the hardcore sim community too. Most members are old and way outnumbers the new young blood.

In order to even get a company's interest in this, we're going to have to somehow attract new blood so that we can DEMONSTRATE our numbers and our interest.

So the question we should be asking is, "How can we attract younger gamers, and keep them engaged and interested?" and "How can we grow this community?"

The next best option would be some kind of "Kickstarter" campaign. But we're not going to get interest unless we show them that our community is large enough to maintain sales and is growing.

Maybe Subsim could become the next "Sonolysts"? I mean, we have plenty of REALLY smart people who know a LOT about modern naval stuff here. I'm sure that we have people who know how to make great game graphics here. Maybe Subsim should become a forum, AND a subsim creation collective?

[Kaleun_Endrass]

Originally Posted by Blacklight

The next best option would be some kind of "Kickstarter" campaign. But we're not going to get interest unless we show them that our community is large enough to maintain sales and is growing.

Maybe Subsim could become the next "Sonolysts"? I mean, we have plenty of REALLY smart people who know a LOT about modern naval stuff here. I'm sure that we have people who know how to make great game graphics here. Maybe Subsim should become a forum, AND a subsim creation collective?

I have a very similar thought of this in my mind for a long time now. I think that we won't get another sub sim game from a game studio (independent or publisher-bound) because we (submarine playing PC gamers) are a too small niche for them to start a financially risky project. After experienced SH3 to SH5, SHO isn't a sub sim gameplay-wise for me and I think for most of the other members too.
So the only solution is and will be: "develop our own sub sim".
There are just 3 options to do that:
1) just start the project (open-source or behind closed doors, doesn't matter)
3) start a crowd-funding project to hire a game studio
2) start a crowd-funding project to buy SH5 (what wouldn't work because of Ubi and SHO, so there are actually 2 options only)

Each option has pro and cons and I strongly believe that none option will work all alone. But i think that a good mix of 1) and 2) with the constant influence of our community and under the patronage of SUBSIM, which would for instance allow new members fill gaps where dev-team members quit, will work. Such a project should be SUBSIM-based because here all the flotillas and the submarine communities around the web are participating and can bring in man-power. SUBSIM-based would definitely bring in more support. Using a public part of the forum for reports of the development process, binding the community to the project and attract "new blood" and a closed area for the devs only would be working great (I experienced such a method back in my 9th-flotilla times, a german subsim forum, when we were doing SH3 mods and it worked very good).

Unfortunately I have to disappoint you Blacklight. A Uboat subsim should be the first goal to approach because with this theme we know the most technically. We have countless more resources for uboats, PTO submarines and the whole WW2 era than for modern warfare and modern naval weapon systems.
I have to admit that a cold war era and modern subs tempt me and one important feature of our self-made subsim game has to be a modular architecture where you can do campaign-based content and systems (DLL, scripts, assets, etc.) So it would be possible to create a cold-war campaign later on or parallel by enthusiasts.

As I mentioned above I have that thought of building an own submarine simulation for a long time now (to be honest since half year after SH3 was released). Over time there were similar threads like this one but the necessarity to stick more to this topic was never greater than now, because few years back SH4 and SH5 were in sight. But now there is nothing comparable anywhere, no projects like Danger from the Deep, no total conversation mods whatsoever. It's good to see that more people are interested in keeping our genre alive and start such forum threads.

I've backed and am following the development of Star Citizen by legendary Chris Roberts right now and over there I've got some pretty good ideas for how to do a SUBSIM sub sim.
And right here the very important question is raised: Will SUBSIM (Neal Stevens) support such a project?

[tonibamestre]

Well,suggest you to have a look to Vehicle Simulator from Illan Pappini. Have quite lot of potential concerning Aeronaval stuff,and even AJ Weber has put a close eye into it in order to build new naval platforms ( surface+submarine ) for it.
Imagine we could improve the game with more effects,full combat capability and life detection/weapon systems for each platform.

Can be an interesting future

[MAXLD]

We need the submarine equivalent to this:

Project C.A.R.S. :
- http://www.wmdportal.com/projects/cars/

Community created, PC focused, best graphics possible, best physics possible, all the realism we can put into it, continuous community based feedback and testing.
And it would certainly be cheaper, without having to pay for official licenses (cars brands, tracks, in that case) and other things.

We have a tremendous mod community that always fixed SH games along the years with impressive results... completely transforming them and adding the features we always wanted with great detail and accuracy.

All this time we have been demanding those tons of things that Ubisoft doesn't want to deliver because is not profitable in their eyes. SHO is the ultimate chance for them to make money out of the franchise... they tried dumbing it down in "SHV" to make a few more bucks and they are now desperate to make it even more reachable to casual gamers and cash some real money. We all know how big companies work.

If we want something done the way we want, we might have to do it ourselves. Subsim community is still very large and I think it can be done.

[stormrider_sp]

Should the future of Subsims only be limited to WW2 era?
How about modern subsim?

[Der_Meister]

Kickstarter is the best option our Subsim community has, and frankly, the only option I believe. Building a sim from the ground up is not like modding. Kickstart will provide the funds, motivation and (more importantly) cohesion to create a finished product.

[Kaleun_Endrass]

Originally Posted by Der_Meister

Kickstarter is the best option our Subsim community has, and frankly, the only option I believe. Building a sim from the ground up is not like modding.

Again, here is one throwing in the "kickstarter" thing without a concept behind. What will you do with the money?

Kickstart will provide the funds, motivation and (more importantly) cohesion to create a finished product.

To whom? That's what I mean with "without concept".

If you want to hire a game studio then they would work as long as there's money. The result they would deliver is a (modable) black box because of copyrights and related rights and intellectual property rights. For different campaigns (WW1, WW2, Cold War) we would definately need the full source code to add stuff (f.i. a new type of event trigger) or change certain program behaviour that isn't scriptable.
What you can do is hire freelancers to built up the basic structure and program needed tools. But the game assets, 3D models, sounds, etc. would have to be done by participating community members (or again by freelancers).

[tsotha]

Originally Posted by Blacklight

I seriously don't want ANOTHER Uboat sim. I'm so tired of World War II. Give me a nice Cold War subsim.

But WW II sims have some pretty big advantages. For one, the whole environment changes between 1939 and 1945. You get sent right to the bottom if you're using 1939 tactics in 1945. How much have tactics changed since the invention of TAS?

Also, you're not going to actually do much in a cold war sim. No fiddling with the TDC - it's all computerized. Attacks are made from beyond periscope range, so there's nothing to see.

And a hot war in that era is over in a few days, max. There's no six years of increasingly dangerous duty.

Going the other way, a WW I sim is going to be pretty boring as well, but for different reasons. ASW is still in its infancy, so there isn't much danger until the war enters its third year. Hell, doctrine was to motor up to the victim, order its crew into lifeboats, and sink the ship with explosives placed by a boarding party. It isn't until the last year or so of the war that you had much to fear from the enemy. How is that going to be turned into an interesting game?

My holy grails right now are 1. A new "Dangerous Waters", and 2. A new "Harpoon" (that actually works and isn't a buggy mess).

Amen to a new "Harpoon". I loved that game, especially after they got most of the bugs worked out.

Maybe Subsim could become the next "Sonolysts"? I mean, we have plenty of REALLY smart people who know a LOT about modern naval stuff here. I'm sure that we have people who know how to make great game graphics here. Maybe Subsim should become a forum, AND a subsim creation collective?

I don't know enough about subs to make a modern sim, but if other people did the artsy stuff I can do some of the programming. I still think the best bet would be to buy the SH5 code base from Ubi and then finish it. Otherwise it's a years-long project, just like it was for Ubi.

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by tsotha

Also, you're not going to actually do much in a cold war sim. No fiddling with the TDC - it's all computerized. Attacks are made from beyond periscope range, so there's nothing to see.

That's just not true.

[Karl Heinrich]

I think with the WW2 v Cold War issue, it would need to be a modular system that can provide both (similar to X-Plane for Flight Sims, the engine provides the enviroment and it can be populated with what you put in it essentially) and any community-led game is likely to be more open to enable this than a commercially-driven one. So I don't think there should be too much debate about that one. Similarly this approach would easily enable the implementation of surface ships (I say easily, this is all pretty abstract and relative at the moment of course).

Eseentially, I think a focus on the core, shared elements first so a potentially great project like this doesn't get slowed down by discussion as to whether it should be WW2 or Cold War or anything else

[biosthetique]

Originally Posted by Blacklight

The other problem is, sadly, that I don't see us getting much in the way of "new blood" into the hardcore sim community. The younger people who we need to flow into the community are, for the most part, not attracted to games that are slow moving, and especially not ones where they have to read a manual to learn to play. Do you know how many people my Dangerous Waters manual has scared off from even giving the game a try? I'd love to give society the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't see the younger generation, that we need to bolster the community, having anywhere NEAR the attention span that's needed to play these games. I just don't see it.

In the hardcore simmers world, there are some distinctions to make.

That community is at least to be divided in half. One half being made up of simmers like you and the other half made up of gamers pretending and asking to be recognized as hardcore simmers when in fact they are buying and playing hardcore sims, in Arcade mode.

Such players are not committed to a simulation, but to an entertainment mode where they can blow the Crap up, in ways that seem to them REALISTIC, with all the Hollywood effects to feel like they were a "A LETHAL WARRIOR". They would meet up on line with their manned up bodies, play a Sim in Arcade mode and club AI baby seals, because "Force on Force" was too hard. Then brag about how good they were. I have seen it, experienced it in Tactical Gamers, SimHQ, etc... playing games such as Arma's, Steel Beast Pro pe, Swat 4, etc...

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

A real hardcore vet simmer, will still be a simmer tomorrow, a fake hardcore simmer will switch after a while to console gaming, anything that shines and easy to play.

The new gaming generation goes for ease. Moreover, the ones attracted to sims, will have the same interests in simulation as their counterparts before. People wanting to be James Bond for an hour pretending to be a Hardcore simmers so their wives and kids will leave them alone "SIMULATING", and not have an imaginary stigma attached to "playing a computer game". Then, the other 1/2 that eat, breath the simulation of the complexity and operation of some technologies, and enjoy it.

The only difference today, is the availability of platform variation to play a game.

I have been a gamer for 20 years, and I have seen it and experienced it!

[desertstriker]

Originally Posted by biosthetique

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

are you saying you have to play DW to be a hard core simmer? i sure hope not because DW may not have the same alure to them and cannot get into it for their own reasons perhaps being a modern simulator and not a WW2 simulator for example.

[biosthetique]

A sim is a sim!....And a manual is a manual!....Read again Blacklight post!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by biosthetique

A sim is a sim!....And a manual is a manual!....Read again Blacklight post!

Not necessarily. People say that Falcon 4 is the best aircraft sim out there, but to the pilot a true simulator is a full cockpit mock-up on a gimbal that precisely represents flying the airplane.

It could therefore be argued that a true submarine simulator would be a real submarine interior the 'player' could walk around in. Anything played on a computer is going to be less than that. Some hardcore players would insist that a true sim allows you to turn every single dial and control every single lever, but those are things a captain never does. Everything is governed by what 'feels' real to the individual player. Once again I quote Rockin Robbins: "Realism is in how you play, not in the game settings".

[desertstriker]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

It could therefore be argued that a true submarine simulator would be a real submarine interior the 'player' could walk around in.

you mean my dream man cave? lol