Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Catfish]

I believe it, but even if that mattered, this video could have been taken anywhere - like the coordinates at the lower left can be applied from anywhere, too.

I take it some secret services should know - question is what they want us to believe

[Jimbuna]

But Putin has assured the world that there are no Russian troops in the area

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

another video showing Russian troops near the Lugansk pocket south of Donetsk, sept. 3rd.

You can see T72B3 tanks, Strela 10 SP SAMs, 6-7 towed 2B16 NONA-K 120 mm mortars. The vehicles are all painted in the standard green used by the Russian Army.

Playing devil's advocate here, it could be anyone, anywhere. The green is used by Ukrainian forces as well, like some other greenish colour schemes , too. An identification of the T-72 model I would find difficult due to the low resolution of the video.

Could be anyone, anywhere. Only the structure, unit spacing and composition of the column gives a hint that it probably is no militia or separtist volunteers, but a unit with military structure and disciplined training background.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

But Putin has assured the world that there are no Russian troops in the area

ikalugin is already writing a post on how much you misunderstood Putin.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Catfish

this video could have been taken anywhere

Originally Posted by Skybird

it could be anyone, anywhere.
Could be anyone, anywhere.

LMAO

[Bilge_Rat]

Oooooooh, tough crowd.

I just post the videos, you guys can tear them apart.

I get a lot of them from the militaryphotos site. They have a very active discussion on the Ukraine crisis, lots of BS, lots of pro-Russians, but once in a while you get a nugget like the last two videos I posted. When even the pro-Russians can't shoot it down, you know it is probably genuine.

I doubted for a long time that Russian troops were in Ukraine and personally I think they have only been in country for a few weeks, but it is now pretty obvious they are there. These videos will pop up more and more now.

[ikalugin]

"Defensive green" is the regulational vehicle colour since USSR.

While videos of vehicles do prove that Russia supplies arms (as T72B3 for example was not exported), they in general do not show who operates them. Thus it is not correct to conclude that they are definetely operated by the Russian Armed Forces, especially considering the scale of local efforts of searching for people with relevant military skills.

[Jimbuna]

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Oooooooh, tough crowd.

while the idiom you used is very applicable to the situation in this thread, I'd rather say: 'thick ppl'

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

"Defensive green" is the regulational vehicle colour since USSR.

While videos of vehicles do prove that Russia supplies arms (as T72B3 for example was not exported), they in general do not show who operates them. Thus it is not correct to conclude that they are definetely operated by the Russian Armed Forces, especially considering the scale of local efforts of searching for people with relevant military skills.

"I don't pull the cat's tail, I just hold it tight."

Russian TV I read showed in a coordinated effort on its channels documentations about Russian "volunteers" who were buried in Russia. Their number is high enough that Moscow cannot hide them anymore, and so searched to regain the initiative after that mother's organisation became loud.

Yes, they all volunteered, and they all took leaves from the military to battle the Ukrainians in their holiday time.

Wake up, ikalugin. You get lulled by your own attempt to be reasonable. You help to cover, whether you are aware of it or not, this new military doctrine that Russia has prepared since several years, calling it I think non-linear warfare. It bases on KGB operation plans from the cold war and modified and widen their scope. It was the Kremlin's reaction to the way the recent American wars and their inability to really defeat the insurgents went along, and the Arab Spring's toppling of regimes and the way Islamic hardliners tried to grab power by disguising themselves as democrats. Not to have your troops fighting under your nation's colours and emblems, is part of that doctrine. So that there may guys like you claiming "We do not participate in the fight, so do not hold us responsible".

It's just a formality - used to set up a distraction maneuver. Russia i party in thios conflict. Who operates those vehicles and aims the weapons, is not really important, separatists and the Kremlin work together.

[CCIP]

Setting aside the identity of little green men and their little green tanks for a moment, there's one thing in this that doesn't seem to add up for me: why and how is this drive to Mariupol happening if not for Russia? It's a completely isolated pocket from the Donetsk and Lugansk militias. It wasn't, as I recall, one of the major hotbeds of separatist unrest after the Maidan happened. And there seems to be rather little obvious strategic value to this drive for the cause of DNR and LNR.

On the other hand, its strategic value to Russia is more than obvious (as a land corridor to the Crimea). That, more than anything, makes me wonder.

[MH]

On the other hand, its strategic value to Russia is more than obvious (as a land corridor to the Crimea). That, more than anything, makes me wonder.

It is quite self evident.
Also the quality and effectiveness of the fight the separatist put on is something to recon with.
There is a lot of propaganda shrouding this conflict yet there is also a lot of claims by Ukrainian solders about benign in fight Russian forces.
It is something to consider since training relatively effective professionals takes time and it shows... yet this conflict is not old enough.
Could be also Russian well trained volunteers.

[CCIP]

Well as I mentioned elsewhere, that part is not a surprise, because the Ukrainian military is not in good position to fight, both materially and in terms of training and leadership, and morale. The age of this conflict has nothing to do with it- that's only a consideration if you don't know anything about the history of the region. There might not have been a war in the Ukraine, but there's plenty of violence in the region where that experience might come from. This goes for both sides, by the way. Not incidentally, many of the pro-government militias that have done the bulk of the fighting so far have just the same combat experience, often fighting the same guys they're fighting now, whether in Chechnya, Georgia, Moldova, former Yugoslavia, or elsewhere.

Otherwise, the Ukrainian military is in a poor position now partly because during the Yuschenko years the officer corps was thoroughly purged of the "old guard", I.e. officers raised by the Soviet experience and thus seen as politically unreliable. Doesn't take a genius to figure out what side that "old guard" might be taking after being forced out of their positions in the Ukrainian army.

[MH]

Otherwise, the Ukrainian military is in a poor position now partly because during the Yuschenko years the officer corps was thoroughly purged of the "old guard", I.e. officers raised by the Soviet experience and thus seen as politically unreliable. Doesn't take a genius to figure out what side that "old guard" might be taking after being forced out of their positions in the Ukrainian army

I sort of considered the option that Ukrainian army is not really well organized and motivated.
Yet when I hear about Ukrainian planes shot down , rebels causing heavy casualties with coordination with artillery using AT weapons , relatively fast territorial gains after some setbacks it makes me a bit wonder what is going on there.
Besides , it would be ridiculous if Russia wasn't deep in this...
Strangely the more the Ukrainians try to mobilize and push the more effective balanced resistance they face.
Looks odd...after all it all should be hastily organized militia Ukrainians are fighting.

[Skybird]

Putin probably had underestimated the Ukrainian army a bit, hoping that he would be able to stay out with his own troops, and have his proxy doing the fighting all alone. But then came the Ukrainian push into rebel-held territory, and the separatists were retreating on all fronts, and had to do so quickly, the land they held shrinking fast, Luhansk in danger of beeing completely encircled. Kiev started to announce that Donezk would fall in a short time, so would Luhansk. And all of a sudden - the winds of war changed, and the rebels retaliated with such a ferocity and superior firepower that the Ukrainian army had surviving soldiers returning from the battlefield saying that they got mauled and that they lost three brigades in extremely short time, while commanders at the front desperately called for help over public TV and radio...? Now the rebels no longer retreating, but reconquering lost territory - and all by their own strength?

Extremely unlikely.