The energy thread

Skybird · 08-26-22, 06:09 AM

High time for one, I would say. We have marathon threads for Russia, Ukraine, China, Germany, the UK, the US, economy, and always energy shows up in any of these.

Before in Germany we will see the materialization of a gas problem, we will already see the materialisation of an electricity crisis, and many other countries have their own problems with energy shortages, too.

Skybird · 08-26-22, 06:12 AM

On the Candian-German H2-"deal", Hans Hofmann-Reinicke writes in his Blog "Think Again":

Hydrogen from Canada the salvation?

The German chancellor recently visited the president of Canada to reach initial agreements with him on the supply of green hydrogen. In the short term - for this winter or next - this will certainly not yet take hold. But in the medium or long term, is it the solution to our energy problems?

Green projects are characterized by dispensing with studies of technical and economic feasibility and starting right away with implementation. That way, it sometimes becomes quite expensive, but the benefits are all the smaller. The energy turnaround costs more than a scoop of ice cream, and instead of electricity from coal and nuclear power, there's freezing for peace. So there is plenty of reason to take a closer look at the Canadian hydrogen issue.

Off the Canadian mainland lies the island of Newfoundland, three times the size of NRW but with fewer inhabitants than Düsseldorf. This sparsely populated region is said to have steady and strong winds, making it an ideal location for turbines to generate electricity. But who is going to buy the electricity? The nearest towns worth mentioning are too far away to lay transmission lines there. So you package the power in a way that makes it easier to export.

The electricity is run through water to produce hydrogen, which is called "green hydrogen" because it comes from clean wind energy. One kilogram of it contains the energy of 33 kWh, or about five times what's in a kilogram of coal. That's the good news. The bad news is that one kilogram of hydrogen takes up a volume of 11 cubic meters, it would just fit in a very large closet.

Thanks to this low density, people used to fill airships with hydrogen; it made them lighter than air. Now, however, we don't want to transport passengers, but hydrogen itself. To do this, we use the effect that gases become liquid at low temperatures. The smaller the molecules, the colder it has to be. Methane, for example, CH4, becomes liquid at -164°C, and hydrogen H2 at -253°C. That's pretty darn cold, only 20°C above absolute zero. The machinery for this liquefaction consumes 12 kWh per kg of H2, which is more than a third of its energy content. And another bad news: even one kilogram of liquid hydrogen (LH2) still has a volume of 14 liters! That makes it very unwieldy to transport, not to mention that it must always be kept at 20°C above absolute zero while traveling. So is it not even possible to ship the hydrogen from Canada to Germany as planned?

For half a century, LNG ships loaded with liquid natural gas, i.e. liquefied methane, have been plowing through the world's oceans; they are these huge barges with half a dozen domes on deck. Couldn't they also be used for green hydrogen?

No - not for two reasons. The difference between -164°C and -253°C is not significant in our minds - both are cold as hell. Physically, the difference between 20 Kelvin for LH2 and 109 Kelvin for LNG is huge. So the insulation systems must be different, as well as the refrigeration units that provide the low temperatures.

But there is a second aspect, the economic aspect. In each cubic meter of tank, such a ship carries 440 kg of LNG, but would only carry 71 kg of LH2, i.e. only one sixth. The economic calculation naturally takes into account the ratio of transport costs to the value of the cargo, and this is very unfavorable in the case of LH2.

Is there no feasible way to transport LH2 from Canada to Germany? That would be a prerequisite for the Canadian deal!

The world's first such trip, including loading and unloading of LH2, was made by the Suiso Frontier from Victoria, Australia, to Kobe, Japan, arriving in May 2022. It was a highly subsidized project to demonstrate technical feasibility.

So does this prove the feasibility of importing LH2 from Canada? The technical feasibility may be there. But the economic viability is more than questionable. If you look at the whole supply chain: Wind energy - electricity - electrolysis - liquefaction - ship transport - distribution - storage - conversion to electricity in fuel cells - feed into the grid - then one has to be very skeptical. It would be murderously expensive. Maybe then the LH2 levy will be introduced in Germany and the kilowatt hour will ultimately cost one euro.

Let us hope that one day the realization will prevail that it is not the citizens who are there to finance the absurd energy plans of the Greens, but that energy policy is there to secure for the citizens the quality of life they have earned and to provide the economy with an infrastructure in which it can operate competitively.
--------------------------

Not to mention that this project, if it ever becomes real, will not see the fruits of its efforts before 7-12 years from now on. That allows the question - what to do until then, Germany?

Law of physics: when you transport electricty, you allways have losses due to the inner resistence of the wire (measured in Ohm). Regarding overland wires from powerplants to industrial plants some 100s of kilometers away, these can be immense, up to one quarter, even one third. Now we want transport energy storage agents like H2 via ships, these hydrogen tankers, and it seems we again suffer immense losses.

Logic offers a splendid solution: producing the power right where it is needed, on location, and without taking in-between-steps like making H2 first! And you are done. Sun independent. Wind-independent. Season- independent. But before German green minds understand this its more likely that you can make a cactus talking.

Skybird · 08-26-22, 06:35 AM

This website offers analysis data and -tools regarding everything electrical power in Germany: grid status, daily sit rep, energy mix etc etc.

https://www.stromdaten.info/

mapuc · 08-26-22, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

This website offers analysis data and -tools regarding everything electrical power in Germany: grid status, daily sit rep, energy mix etc etc.

https://www.stromdaten.info/

We have similar page here in Denmark. I toke a look at energinet.dk to see our
We are importing electricity from Norway, Sweden, Germany and Holland. We are also exporting electricity to Germany.

In all Denmark is importing 2087 MW.

Gas.
Denmark is importing from Germany 1.300.899 kWh/h of gas(Don't know who much this is in cubic meter)Something with 11,586 kWh/m3 in burning value.

If Russia decide to shut down their gas supply to Europe-Denmark has enough for four month. The winter will be harsh if it happens.

Markus

MaDef · 08-26-22, 07:40 AM

Quote:

If Russia decide to shut down their gas supply to Europe-Denmark has enough for four month. The winter will be harsh if it happens.

I would suggest you invest in thermal underwear in case that happens.

August · 08-26-22, 08:19 AM

My German grandparents would sleep with the windows open in the winter. The only heat in the house was from the kitchen wood stove.

They still (or perhaps because) managed to successfully raise 11 children, and that's in spite of my grandfather being gone off to the war for seven years.

I think they made tougher Volk back in those days.

08-26-22, 06:09 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	The energy thread High time for one, I would say. We have marathon threads for Russia, Ukraine, China, Germany, the UK, the US, economy, and always energy shows up in any of these. Before in Germany we will see the materialization of a gas problem, we will already see the materialisation of an electricity crisis, and many other countries have their own problems with energy shortages, too. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-26-22, 06:12 AM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	On the Candian-German H2-"deal", Hans Hofmann-Reinicke writes in his Blog "Think Again": Hydrogen from Canada the salvation? The German chancellor recently visited the president of Canada to reach initial agreements with him on the supply of green hydrogen. In the short term - for this winter or next - this will certainly not yet take hold. But in the medium or long term, is it the solution to our energy problems? Green projects are characterized by dispensing with studies of technical and economic feasibility and starting right away with implementation. That way, it sometimes becomes quite expensive, but the benefits are all the smaller. The energy turnaround costs more than a scoop of ice cream, and instead of electricity from coal and nuclear power, there's freezing for peace. So there is plenty of reason to take a closer look at the Canadian hydrogen issue. Off the Canadian mainland lies the island of Newfoundland, three times the size of NRW but with fewer inhabitants than Düsseldorf. This sparsely populated region is said to have steady and strong winds, making it an ideal location for turbines to generate electricity. But who is going to buy the electricity? The nearest towns worth mentioning are too far away to lay transmission lines there. So you package the power in a way that makes it easier to export. The electricity is run through water to produce hydrogen, which is called "green hydrogen" because it comes from clean wind energy. One kilogram of it contains the energy of 33 kWh, or about five times what's in a kilogram of coal. That's the good news. The bad news is that one kilogram of hydrogen takes up a volume of 11 cubic meters, it would just fit in a very large closet. Thanks to this low density, people used to fill airships with hydrogen; it made them lighter than air. Now, however, we don't want to transport passengers, but hydrogen itself. To do this, we use the effect that gases become liquid at low temperatures. The smaller the molecules, the colder it has to be. Methane, for example, CH4, becomes liquid at -164°C, and hydrogen H2 at -253°C. That's pretty darn cold, only 20°C above absolute zero. The machinery for this liquefaction consumes 12 kWh per kg of H2, which is more than a third of its energy content. And another bad news: even one kilogram of liquid hydrogen (LH2) still has a volume of 14 liters! That makes it very unwieldy to transport, not to mention that it must always be kept at 20°C above absolute zero while traveling. So is it not even possible to ship the hydrogen from Canada to Germany as planned? For half a century, LNG ships loaded with liquid natural gas, i.e. liquefied methane, have been plowing through the world's oceans; they are these huge barges with half a dozen domes on deck. Couldn't they also be used for green hydrogen? No - not for two reasons. The difference between -164°C and -253°C is not significant in our minds - both are cold as hell. Physically, the difference between 20 Kelvin for LH2 and 109 Kelvin for LNG is huge. So the insulation systems must be different, as well as the refrigeration units that provide the low temperatures. But there is a second aspect, the economic aspect. In each cubic meter of tank, such a ship carries 440 kg of LNG, but would only carry 71 kg of LH2, i.e. only one sixth. The economic calculation naturally takes into account the ratio of transport costs to the value of the cargo, and this is very unfavorable in the case of LH2. Is there no feasible way to transport LH2 from Canada to Germany? That would be a prerequisite for the Canadian deal! The world's first such trip, including loading and unloading of LH2, was made by the Suiso Frontier from Victoria, Australia, to Kobe, Japan, arriving in May 2022. It was a highly subsidized project to demonstrate technical feasibility. So does this prove the feasibility of importing LH2 from Canada? The technical feasibility may be there. But the economic viability is more than questionable. If you look at the whole supply chain: Wind energy - electricity - electrolysis - liquefaction - ship transport - distribution - storage - conversion to electricity in fuel cells - feed into the grid - then one has to be very skeptical. It would be murderously expensive. Maybe then the LH2 levy will be introduced in Germany and the kilowatt hour will ultimately cost one euro. Let us hope that one day the realization will prevail that it is not the citizens who are there to finance the absurd energy plans of the Greens, but that energy policy is there to secure for the citizens the quality of life they have earned and to provide the economy with an infrastructure in which it can operate competitively. -------------------------- Not to mention that this project, if it ever becomes real, will not see the fruits of its efforts before 7-12 years from now on. That allows the question - what to do until then, Germany? Law of physics: when you transport electricty, you allways have losses due to the inner resistence of the wire (measured in Ohm). Regarding overland wires from powerplants to industrial plants some 100s of kilometers away, these can be immense, up to one quarter, even one third. Now we want transport energy storage agents like H2 via ships, these hydrogen tankers, and it seems we again suffer immense losses. Logic offers a splendid solution: producing the power right where it is needed, on location, and without taking in-between-steps like making H2 first! And you are done. Sun independent. Wind-independent. Season- independent. But before German green minds understand this its more likely that you can make a cactus talking. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 08-26-22 at 06:21 AM.

08-26-22, 06:35 AM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	This website offers analysis data and -tools regarding everything electrical power in Germany: grid status, daily sit rep, energy mix etc etc. https://www.stromdaten.info/ __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-26-22, 08:19 AM	#6
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 22,667 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	My German grandparents would sleep with the windows open in the winter. The only heat in the house was from the kitchen wood stove. They still (or perhaps because) managed to successfully raise 11 children, and that's in spite of my grandfather being gone off to the war for seven years. I think they made tougher Volk back in those days. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.