[REL] R.S.D. - Reworked Submarine Damage

[gap]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Tested ...It works!

Originally Posted by vdr1981

I'll do necessary changes, inplement this in the main RSD mod, give you the credits, and rename mod to "R.S.D.-Revorked Submarine damage v5.2 by vdr1981/Gap". Is that OK with you? :P

You don't really need to. I am happy enough that some of my theories proved correct, that while messing with those files we are learning a lot and, above all, that this mod is coming along nicely

To update R.E.M now!

[gap]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Guys. now you are nitpicking ...

No problem, I can try placing them correctly. If I manage doing it, I will send you the edited files, but you should tell me how exactly you added the new labels in the damage menu.

Interface cleanness is very important to me

[plj]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

I see, this means that you already use some mod for GUI, Nauticawolf maybe? Try to remove it... You see, i implemented only textures from Nauticawolf's mod, slot's layout is default...Got it?

Although , i think that your layout is much better...

You are right, I have Nauticalwolf's mod .. this is their respective order in my list.

Nauticalwolf's_Damage_and_Torpedo_UI(b)_Mod_v1.1
R.S.D. - Reworked Submarine Damage v5.1 by vdr1981

I'll try removing it and report back. Altho I think I'll wait for the 5.2 .. else I'll keep bussy setting course 243 and rolling a cigarette

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by gap

At last those tolerance settings work for AI guns! Brilliant

You can't imagine how much I and Volodya struggled with them on U-boat Flaks

Sure they do... Those "fire tolerances" (def value 1 for all guns) are basically AI "trigger happy" settings... Will they shoot only when barrel is perfectly aligned with target or will they have more "freedom" to spend the ammunition.

For example, i use (for mid calibers deck guns, on destroyers mostly) settings ~0.6(elev. speed), ~10(rotate speed), ~5 deg. (elev/trav tolerance) . This gives me less accurate AI, let's say 1/10 from 5-6km(sometimes more,sometimes less)...

And also i have a theory why AI is more precise from larger distances...Maybe because there is a limit for waves/wake render around player's sub...So when destroyer shooting at you from 7 km, he's actually gliding on perfectly smooth surface...As distance decreases, he's starting to piching up/down and also starting to lose his precision...

[gap]

Originally Posted by plj

You are right, I have Nauticalwolf's mod .. this is their respective order in my list.

I'll try removing it and report back.

Keep us informed on any misplaced damage label, or missing connection line

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by gap

Keep us informed on any misplaced damage label, or missing connection line

Gap, you are the perfectionist!

Tell me what you think about my findings regarding AI precision...

[gap]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Gap, you are the perfectionist!

Yes, I am. This is one of the worst weak points of my personality, when applied to big projects...

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Tell me what you think about my findings regarding AI precision...

See below

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Sure they do... Those "fire tolerances" (def value 1 for all guns) are basically AI "trigger happy" settings... Will they shoot only when barrel is perfectly aligned with target or will they have more "freedom" to spend the ammunition.

There are two different "theories" on the meaning of tolerance setting:

- one is that they are the maximum allowed deviation from ideal aiming for the gun to actually fire. In other words: the bigger their setting, the lesser gun's accuracy, to detriment of rates of fire (Max error angle and Max fire wait in Sim.cfg might also come into the picture).
This explaination seems to be confirmed by your experince and by the fact that IIRC during my and Volodya's tests on Flak guns, a value of 0 prevented AI crew from firing the gun (i.e. the gun didn't have a firing tolerance window). Moreover I remember TDW having said something on this subject that also confirms this explaination.

- another explaination that I have read on the forum, is that they are the maximum gyrostabilization angle. In other words, the bigger their setting, the more stabilized the gun, the more accurate its aiming, especially noticeable on heavy seas.

Originally Posted by vdr1981

For example, i use (for mid calibers deck guns, on destroyers mostly) settings ~0.6(elev. speed), ~10(rotate speed), ~5 deg. (elev/trav tolerance) . This gives me less accurate AI, let's say 1/10 from 5-6km(sometimes more,sometimes less)...

Traverse/elevation rates of WWII naval guns, as well as their nominal and practical rates of fire, their dispersion (which made them more or lesser accurate) and their effective and nominal fire ranges, varied greatly from Nation to Nation and from gun to gun. Most of their specs are well documented, and making the game to reflect those specs as closely as possible is the aim of the "Historical Gun Specs" project. I have on my HD a spreadsheet with data on the guns featured in game. I can send it your way, if you want to have a look into it

Originally Posted by vdr1981

And also i have a theory why AI is more precise from larger distances...Maybe because there is a limit for waves/wake render around player's sub...So when destroyer shooting at you from 7 km, he's actually gliding on perfectly smooth surface...As distance decreases, he's starting to piching up/down and also starting to lose his precision...

This is a likely theory.

Have you tried messing with the two Waves amplitude and Waves attenuation settings in Sim.cfg? They could apply to the problem you are describing.

[plj]

Originally Posted by gap

Keep us informed on any misplaced damage label, or missing connection line

Well ... I removed the 'conflict' mod .. and started a new campaign ... eyes closed this time, perhaps thats the issue (j/k) ..

Now all damage labels are left and right aligned to the damage screen, and virtualy none of the lines line up to their appropriate labels.

http://imageshack.us/g/1/10339008/

[gap]

Originally Posted by plj

Well ... I removed the 'conflict' mod .. and started a new campaign ... eyes closed this time, perhaps thats the issue (j/k) ..

Now all damage labels are left and right aligned to the damage screen, and virtualy none of the lines line up to their appropriate labels.

http://imageshack.us/g/1/10339008/

Thank you plj, the misplacement of the labels and their being in German, makes them of little use for the average player, ma included.

What do you think Vecko? I would make German equipment names optional, after that I need for a new set of screenies with English equipment names by plj (), and then I will try moving those equipment labels around and adding missing lines. What do you think, guys?

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by gap

- another explaination that I have read on the forum, is that they are the maximum gyrostabilization angle. In other words, the bigger their setting, the more stabilized the gun, the more accurate its aiming, especially noticeable on heavy seas.

No way...This is not the case, i'm sure of it... Trav/elev tolerance is "window" when AI will have green light to pull the triger. That's where AI skill kicks in(veteran, elite, poor,) .If they are skilled enough, they will be able to pull the triger at just right time to hit the target. If AI is on "poor settings", they will shoot again, but their "triggering" time wont be so accurate . This is how SH AI gunners are made...

Imaging your self using fixed deck gun in the rough seas... The only way to hit your target is to follow pitching of the ship and to pull the trigger at right time, right?
Now , your ability to pull the trigger at right time would be AI skill setings(poor, elite) and trav/elev tolerance would be something like captain instructions "do not shoot on that ship IF you can't pull the triger with deviation less then 5 degerees sailor!"...do you understand my creepy English Gap?

EDIT :

[AI Cannons]
;The degrees at which the AI could be off when aiming guns at you
Max error angle=4.5					;[deg]  was 3, increased 33%
Max fire range=7000					;[m]    was 6000
Max fire wait=12					;[s]

Remember angle setings from Sim.cfg modified by TDW(IRAI)? It does nothing when you put some extreme value in here, like 60 degrees or something. This is because (probably) AI angle limit is already set to 1 in gunsradars.sim and value from SIm.cfg is just something like overall AI elev/trav angle limit with lower priority...

Originally Posted by gap

What do you think Vecko? I would make German equipment names optional, after that I need for a new set of screenies with English equipment names by plj (), and then I will try moving those equipment labels around and adding missing lines. What do you think, guys?

Sure why not, or you should save your skills for something bigger, like torpedo tubes and TDC maybe?
Or maybe we could find new images for GUI, without lines and -problem solved...

[plj]

Thought I'd let you know that the 2 mod's together created multiple system freeze's .. after removing that other one, my game has been stable and my computer hasnt frozen anymore.

I agree that it would be nice to have stuff properly labeled, but the primary goal, more realistic damage, is more important then the polish to me .. at least at the moment.

Mostly because I figure that the polish wont require a new campaign, while the important stuff does .. but that's just personal preference :p

[vdr1981]

I've edited your sensors2.zon file a bit, by default zone is place in the middle of the sub. Could this be proper GHG sensors location? (attachment)

EDIT:
Just tested a bit more...Two stupid crash dives in shallow waters and you can say goodbye to hydrophone...No CTD,freezes, savable...And Benno can't hear a ****...

Originally Posted by plj

Thought I'd let you know that the 2 mod's together created multiple system freeze's .. after removing that other one, my game has been stable and my computer hasnt frozen anymore.

Good finding!

[plj]

Just so you dont miss it ... this looks kinda odd as well

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by plj

Just so you dont miss it ... this looks kinda odd as well

LoL Yes, I've noticed that too...Everything will be fixed...Eventually...

[gap]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

No way...This is not the case, i'm sure of it... Trav/elev tolerance is "window" when AI will have green light to pull the triger.

...

...do you understand my creepy English Gap?

Yes, at all.

Thank you for sharing your findings Vecko, your arguments sound perfectly plausible.

Originally Posted by vdr1981

EDIT :

[AI Cannons]
;The degrees at which the AI could be off when aiming guns at you
Max error angle=4.5					;[deg]  was 3, increased 33%
Max fire range=7000					;[m]    was 6000
Max fire wait=12					;[s]

Remember angle setings from Sim.cfg modified by TDW(IRAI)? It does nothing when you put some extreme value in here, like 60 degrees or something. This is because (probably) AI angle limit is already set to 1 in gunsradars.sim and value from SIm.cfg is just something like overall AI elev/trav angle limit with lower priority...

It makes sense as well. Probably the least value between the global parameter 'Max error angle' and the individual tolerance factors, is applied for each gun.

At this point I wonder how the other 'Max fire wait' parameter is used in game

Originally Posted by plj

I agree that it would be nice to have stuff properly labeled, but the primary goal, more realistic damage, is more important then the polish to me .. at least at the moment.

Mostly because I figure that the polish wont require a new campaign, while the important stuff does .. but that's just personal preference :p

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Sure why not, or you should save your skills for something bigger, like torpedo tubes and TDC maybe?
Or maybe we could find new images for GUI, without lines and -problem solved...

Those lines are useful, and the damage interface mod that you have merged into R.S.D. is beautiful, let's make good use of it.

We will focus on more important features first, and once we will have a complete picture, with all the new equimpent damage labels in place, we will deal with the needed interface adjustements (labels naming and correct placing) as lats task. What do you think guys?

Originally Posted by vdr1981

I've edited your sensors2.zon file a bit, by default zone is place in the middle of the sub. Could this be proper GHG sensors location? (attachment)

I don't get you here.

Boxes and spheres must be centered on their owner object. This is how the new .zon file is set, in conformity with the settings you had used for the stock GHG sensor (copied/pasted your own settings).

This has nothing to do with the placement of the sensor on boat's 3d model. Since you ask it, GHG and Balkon Gerat are fitted on the H01 bone, and KDB is linked on the H02 bone. I know it from u-boats' sns files. I didn't check where the above bones are placed, but I suppose in the bow section, near the keel for bone H01 and on deck for H02. If you wanted to move hydrophone sensors you should move those bones using GR2 Editor.

One last note: I actually ignore what is the use (if any) of .sns and .eqp files for human playable units. Changing their settings don't have any effect in game (at least apparently), maybe for reference? I have still to find how equipment/armament bones on U-boat 3d models are linked to their respective "slots" in upc and upge files.

Originally Posted by vdr1981

EDIT:
Just tested a bit more...Two stupid crash dives in shallow waters and you can say goodbye to hydrophone...No CTD,freezes, savable...And Benno can't hear a ****...

hurray!

be wise when setting sensor's AP and crash depth zone settings, or we will get deaf after the first deep diving

Originally Posted by plj

Just so you dont miss it ... this looks kinda odd as well

Originally Posted by vdr1981

LoL Yes, I've noticed that too...Everything will be fixed...Eventually...

Torpedoes orientation? That is easy to fix: one needs just to flip their textures. I should already have the fix somewhere on my HD, by the way