AUKUS

Catfish · 09-20-21, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Post of the Year material

When it come to being dumbest, yes

mapuc · 09-20-21, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

When it come to being dumbest, yes

???? Why should Skybirds comment be the dumbest ????

Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.

Markus

Catfish · 09-20-21, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.
Markus

Russia cannot afford a war, not now or in the next 20 years.
But theoretically what do you think would have happened in the Trump years IF Russia had taken action against Europe? Let's say just some smaller parts, and waiting again for the next opportunity?

Since Russia and China ARE threats it is indeed high time to do something also in Europe, just NATO will not do.

On the other hand, as posted before, why should Australia not buy or lease russian submarines like India does? Wouldn't THAT be something

mapuc · 09-20-21, 02:52 PM

Since the beginning of the 90's Europe has disarmed a lot. In Denmark and in Sweden many airfields have been shut down, harbour been closed, decrease in number of soldiers.

While Russia has, from what I remember, been rearmed it's military since end of the 90's.

Russia is a lot stronger today than it was in the middle of the 90's.

Back to discussing buying subs from USA and not France.

I would if I was from France felt I had been spit on.
But I'm not, so my feelings in this is neutral.

Markus

Catfish · 09-20-21, 03:05 PM

So let's make it simple:
If nuclear deterrence does not work because Russia or China can have reasonable doubts if America and the UK would retaliate with a nuclear strike, what is this construction worth for anyway, for Europe?

mapuc · 09-20-21, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

So let's make it simple:
If nuclear deterrence does not work because Russia or China can have reasonable doubts if America and the UK would retaliate with a nuclear strike, what is this construction worth for anyway, for Europe?

I don't know to be honest. I hope it wouldn't come so far that Putin think he has a chance to invade and occupy East Europe incl. Germany, Sweden and Denmark. Because I fear that NATO's only response would be nukes.

Markus

Catfish · 09-20-21, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

I don't know to be honest. I hope it wouldn't come so far that Putin think he has a chance to invade and occupy East Europe incl. Germany, Sweden and Denmark. Because I fear that NATO's only response would be nukes.
Markus

No, as long Putin believes there will be a united western nuclear response, an invasion will not happen.
The formerly united west is breaking up right now, with Trump and brexit ony being symptoms of the underlying rot.

Remember Putin's "multipolar world" speech? This is certainly what he hopes for. A multipolar world with single nations not belonging to a bloc or pact will make Russia stronger of course, after their own bloc/pact disintegrated in the 1990ies.
I think he is just waiting for NATO and a western pact breaking apart, and he did not even need to do something, the west does it all by itself. So I am not sure, but regarding what just now happens, the second Putin doubts there will be no unipolar retaliation by the west anymore, he will make his move.

Skybird · 09-21-21, 01:43 PM

And while I prepared the post above, I read that Chinese state shipping compoany Cosco has bought one third of the container terminal capacity in the harbour of hanmburg.

And Hamburg and Germany celebrate it.

If I were America, this would be my advise. Europoe and Germany in special are wildely determined to become Islamic - what one sees as Islam at least and what has little to do with real Islam - and a vasall of China and a dependent of Russia. Military pressure will not prevent this, but serve as an excuse to grow even more anti-American sentiments. So, pull out all military fromEurope, avoid the palce and leav eEurope to itself. Act on China and Russia without considering Europe'S desires.

Do your own thing, and do not care. To hell with the EU Kindergarden. Just the UK's territory can serve as a nice bridgehead for electronic surveillance of Europe.

Europe is lost ground.

Quesiton is why Europe has this anti-American sentiment, although it were the Americans saving it from the Third Reich. There is a lesson to be learned, becasue the moral of the soty is a general one: people do not like to be reminded of their inferiority and weakness. Thats why Greece agitated so heavily against Germany although Germany bailed out Greece substantially, and that is why Germany is criticised in Europe substantially although it pays the biggest share of the bloc's bills and accepted financial obligations in form of Target-2 saldi equalling roughly one trillion Euros. And the same is with America: the way it unilaterally made decisions on Afghanistan shows how impotent Europe really is. The US can militarily roam almost at will globally, its logistical capabilties are one of its biggest strengths. Europe cannot even control its own borders form within. The US does not pay care for European animosities anymore and did what it and Australia wanted to do, without asking. Because Europe's opinion was not asked for - it simply did not matter, and has no strength to make itself matter.

A cobbler should stick to his last. The EU should consider this - but no, they already make big words again. Hubris is what will destroy the EU from within. The writings are clearly visible on the wall already. My advise to America I gave above. My advise to the European nations is: stay in your garden and enjoy it, but stop wanting to missionise the world beyond the fence of yours. And replace that wooden fence with a solid stone wall better sooner than later.

Exocet25fr · 09-20-21, 04:37 PM

Mapuc wrote:

HTML Code:

Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.

Are you a comedian?, don't forget, we have a Powerful Nuclear Weapons, and believe me, we don't hesitate one second to use them counter any agressor!

mapuc · 09-20-21, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exocet25fr

Mapuc wrote:

HTML Code:

Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.

Are you a comedian?, don't forget, we have a Powerful Nuclear Weapons, and believe me, we don't hesitate one second to use them counter any agressor!

As mentioned in one of my former comment. The only response NATO in Europe has is nukes.
NATO in Europe does not have much of a chance when it comes to conventional warfare

Markus

Skybird · 09-21-21, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exocet25fr

Mapuc wrote:

HTML Code:

Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.

Are you a comedian?, don't forget, we have a Powerful Nuclear Weapons, and believe me, we don't hesitate one second to use them counter any agressor!

France starting a nuclear exchangd that would annihilate itself - because Russians take the Baltic, Poland or Hungary?

I dont believe that one second. Not before Russian tanks cross the border of isle de France this would be considered.

Meanwhile NATO is unable to even counter a quick rush of Russia into the three baltic states or eastern poland. They admitted that already years ago.

A Russian attack with the goal of seizing anything west of the verman-Polish border i practically rule out anyway.

Catfish · 09-20-21, 02:34 PM

Europe is no unified "state", it is 27 sovereign countries.
If some of those act in Africa, or the middle East, or near China the uproar is big, "how can/should/dare they?!"
On the other hand the same people demand that Europe grows together and takes its future into its own hands.
At the same time denying Europe an own army able to achieve interests.
But saying 24/7 that Europe should have one.
Complaining against everything with the wind changes is not productive.
How about making up your mind? There is no goal or target that can be achieved if Europe goes on like before in this deteriorating transatlantic relationship.

Sykybird can make fun all he wants about lacking the will and tenacity, there are enough people who will do this job, just not possible in the ridiculous environment in which "allies" do not ask other "allies" acting alone without any information beforehand; and then some oh so special ally pretend you can have your cake and eat it. I am still astonished that the UK does not realize how it has been snubbed by the US but hey, special reationship. Keep on dreaming.

re Aukus, papers called a contract about a submarine deal have been signed between Australia and France.
"contract, signed in 2016 with French company DCNS (now known as Naval Group) to build 12 Barracuda submarines for Australia"
What does anyone think what happened in those five years? Does anyone think France gets the money and time back, are those boats in production? What happens to them?

Skybird · 09-20-21, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Europe is no unified "state", it is 27 sovereign countries.
If some of those act in Africa, or the middle East, or near China the uproar is big, "how can/should/dare they?!"
On the other hand the same people demand that Europe grows together and takes its future into its own hands.
At the same time denying Europe an own army able to achieve interests.
But saying 24/7 that Europe should have one.
Complaining against everything with the wind changes is not productive.

etc etc etc

Ach Catfish... If only I could recognise myself in your claims on what I should have said, meant, implied. But I cannot, and so...

09-20-21, 02:52 PM	#4
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 18,122 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Since the beginning of the 90's Europe has disarmed a lot. In Denmark and in Sweden many airfields have been shut down, harbour been closed, decrease in number of soldiers. While Russia has, from what I remember, been rearmed it's military since end of the 90's. Russia is a lot stronger today than it was in the middle of the 90's. Back to discussing buying subs from USA and not France. I would if I was from France felt I had been spit on. But I'm not, so my feelings in this is neutral. Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

09-20-21, 03:05 PM	#5
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,905 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	So let's make it simple: If nuclear deterrence does not work because Russia or China can have reasonable doubts if America and the UK would retaliate with a nuclear strike, what is this construction worth for anyway, for Europe? __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

09-21-21, 01:43 PM	#8
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,656 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	And while I prepared the post above, I read that Chinese state shipping compoany Cosco has bought one third of the container terminal capacity in the harbour of hanmburg. And Hamburg and Germany celebrate it. If I were America, this would be my advise. Europoe and Germany in special are wildely determined to become Islamic - what one sees as Islam at least and what has little to do with real Islam - and a vasall of China and a dependent of Russia. Military pressure will not prevent this, but serve as an excuse to grow even more anti-American sentiments. So, pull out all military fromEurope, avoid the palce and leav eEurope to itself. Act on China and Russia without considering Europe'S desires. Do your own thing, and do not care. To hell with the EU Kindergarden. Just the UK's territory can serve as a nice bridgehead for electronic surveillance of Europe. Europe is lost ground. Quesiton is why Europe has this anti-American sentiment, although it were the Americans saving it from the Third Reich. There is a lesson to be learned, becasue the moral of the soty is a general one: people do not like to be reminded of their inferiority and weakness. Thats why Greece agitated so heavily against Germany although Germany bailed out Greece substantially, and that is why Germany is criticised in Europe substantially although it pays the biggest share of the bloc's bills and accepted financial obligations in form of Target-2 saldi equalling roughly one trillion Euros. And the same is with America: the way it unilaterally made decisions on Afghanistan shows how impotent Europe really is. The US can militarily roam almost at will globally, its logistical capabilties are one of its biggest strengths. Europe cannot even control its own borders form within. The US does not pay care for European animosities anymore and did what it and Australia wanted to do, without asking. Because Europe's opinion was not asked for - it simply did not matter, and has no strength to make itself matter. A cobbler should stick to his last. The EU should consider this - but no, they already make big words again. Hubris is what will destroy the EU from within. The writings are clearly visible on the wall already. My advise to America I gave above. My advise to the European nations is: stay in your garden and enjoy it, but stop wanting to missionise the world beyond the fence of yours. And replace that wooden fence with a solid stone wall better sooner than later. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-20-21, 04:37 PM	#9
Exocet25fr Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris/France Posts: 784 Downloads: 254 Uploads: 0	Mapuc wrote: HTML Code: Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe. Are you a comedian?, don't forget, we have a Powerful Nuclear Weapons, and believe me, we don't hesitate one second to use them counter any agressor! __________________ \"Le Triomphant\" listens you !

09-20-21, 02:34 PM	#12
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,905 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Europe is no unified "state", it is 27 sovereign countries. If some of those act in Africa, or the middle East, or near China the uproar is big, "how can/should/dare they?!" On the other hand the same people demand that Europe grows together and takes its future into its own hands. At the same time denying Europe an own army able to achieve interests. But saying 24/7 that Europe should have one. Complaining against everything with the wind changes is not productive. How about making up your mind? There is no goal or target that can be achieved if Europe goes on like before in this deteriorating transatlantic relationship. Sykybird can make fun all he wants about lacking the will and tenacity, there are enough people who will do this job, just not possible in the ridiculous environment in which "allies" do not ask other "allies" acting alone without any information beforehand; and then some oh so special ally pretend you can have your cake and eat it. I am still astonished that the UK does not realize how it has been snubbed by the US but hey, special reationship. Keep on dreaming. re Aukus, papers called a contract about a submarine deal have been signed between Australia and France. "contract, signed in 2016 with French company DCNS (now known as Naval Group) to build 12 Barracuda submarines for Australia" What does anyone think what happened in those five years? Does anyone think France gets the money and time back, are those boats in production? What happens to them? __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.