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Old 08-12-22, 05:58 PM   #3916
August
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kptlt. Neuerburg View Post
It's a little thing called Presidential Records Act. Also would you care to point out where in my post that I claim to know that it was or was not common. Or is that just a knee-jerk reaction?

Sure, you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kptlt. Neuerburg View Post
What is not a common thing among presidential papers is for a former president to take them home after leaving office, at least not since Nixon.

Sounds like a claim to me.
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Old 08-12-22, 06:26 PM   #3917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by August View Post
Sure, you said:




Sounds like a claim to me.
It depends on what you define as a claim. I can also claim that it was a simple observation. But I never claimed to have any knowledge that any former president kept papers related to their presidency at their homes, offices and/or any other buildings or properties owned by them while appearing to violate the PRA.
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Old 08-12-22, 08:06 PM   #3918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kptlt. Neuerburg View Post
It depends on what you define as a claim. I can also claim that it was a simple observation. But I never claimed to have any knowledge that any former president kept papers related to their presidency at their homes, offices and/or any other buildings or properties owned by them while appearing to violate the PRA.

Sure you did. You claimed to know what was common and what isn't. You can try and walk it back if you want to I suppose but all I did was ask you what made you say what you did. From your response I get the sense you have no other reason other than you want it to be true.
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Old 08-12-22, 08:43 PM   #3919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by August View Post
Sure you did. You claimed to know what was common and what isn't. You can try and walk it back if you want to I suppose but all I did was ask you what made you say what you did. From your response I get the sense you have no other reason other than you want it to be true.
Ok I'll bite. Out of the six presidents that have been in office since I've been alive from George Bush to Joe Biden how many of them have raided, investigated, or whatever for supposedly violating the Presidential Records Act since this is supposedly the Act Trump violated? As for the outcome it's really meh... It won't effect my job, how much I get paid, and a hundred and one other things.
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Old 08-12-22, 09:06 PM   #3920
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So if we win in 2024 I guess we'll get to up the ante from FBI raids to drone strikes? Isn't that how things are done?
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Old 08-12-22, 09:21 PM   #3921
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Who's "we"?
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Old 08-13-22, 02:34 AM   #3922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by August View Post
Presidents build entire libraries from their presidential papers.
Presidential libraries are operated by the NARA. Ownership of the documents remains in their hands, not the ex-president's.



Quote:
Originally Posted by August View Post
Most likely declassified stuff that didn't get it's security tags removed. A common thing among presidential papers.
Doesn't matter. Once the president leaves office, the records' ownership transfers to the US. Classified or not.

Fifteen boxes were already recovered earlier this year, now FBI saw the need to execute a search warrant. And if they did recover records, that very much shows intent of hiding them.

EDIT: The warrant and what was taken:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/re...54.17.0_10.pdf

That's a lot of top/secret documents.


Also to add is that if a document is labeled as classified or some other such way, then that's what it is. Declassification is a process and the new status of a document will be added to said document. So any silly excuses like "oh they forgot the tag" is just that, silly.

Further, SCI documents were found. These are generally only accessable in a secury facility. There's no excuse for them being found in Mar-a-lago.


To summarize:
- Trump took documents to Mar-a-lago
- Fifteen boxes were returned early this year
- Trump was subpoenaed in June to return any remaining documents
- Trump ignored the subpoena
- FBI executed a search warrant and found number of classified documents at Mar-a-lago


Good luck defending him!


EDIT2: Oh, and Breitbart leaked the names of the FBI agents who served the warrant. I wonder where that info came from...

Last edited by Dowly; 08-13-22 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 08-13-22, 07:19 AM   #3923
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It is still up to a court to decide whether he's guilty or not guilty

If I do not remember wrong an accused person is not guilty until found guilty in a court.

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Old 08-13-22, 09:40 AM   #3924
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well, from purely legal point of view, this looks like a hard case to prosecute:

1. were the documents classified? Presidents have a very broad authority to declassify documents and the argument coming out from the Trump legal team is that all these documents had been declassified by the former POTUS while in office.

2. how did the documents come into the former POTUS possession? One of the requirements for the infraction is that it was a wilful act to take the documents, but based on facts coming out, it seems the GAO just packed up all of the former POTUS items and shipped them to his residence, so it would seem difficult to prove he took them wilfully.

3. Did the former POTUS wilfully retain classified documents?This would probably be difficult to prove since DOJ would have to overcome numerous hurdles:

3.1 Did Trump know he had classified documents? The documents were stored in archive boxes shipped directly from the WH. Doubtful Trump ever personally looked in the boxes to see what was in there;

3.2 Did Trump wilfully retain the classified documents? Even if Trump knew about the documents, he apparently had a "good faith" belief he had de-classified them, so he was not wilfully retaining classified documents. The 2nd part to this is that his legal team apparently fully cooperated with the DOJ previously, returning all the documents they asked for and securing the rest.
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Old 08-13-22, 10:25 AM   #3925
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France24 writes:

The warrant gave prosecutors the right to seize records containing evidence in violation of three federal laws, 18 USC 793, 2071 and 1519.
While the list of items agents took from Mar-a-Lago notes that many of the documents were classified, those three laws deal with mishandling of federal government records regardless of whether or not they are classified.
Law 793 prevents unauthorised possession of national defense information, without mentioning whether the records are classified or not. It is punishable by up to 10 years in prison for each infraction.
That law was initially passed under the 1917 Espionage Act, which predates the statutory classification system.
The other laws, 2071 and 1519, make it illegal to conceal or destroy official US documents. They are punishable by up to three and 20 years in prison, respectively. Neither law requires the information in question to be classified.
Federal law also makes it illegal to intentionally take classified documents to an unauthorised location, but that law was not among the three cited in the search warrant.
Trump in 2018 signed a change in law making it a felony to mishandle classified documents and increasing the maximum prison term for individuals convicted of such from one to five years after criticising Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton for using a private email server to handle sensitive information while she was secretary of state.
Q: So when did the DOJ start treating removal of classified documents like a felony anyway?
A: When President Trump signed a 2018 law making it a felony. pic.twitter.com/KA6RKYlQ8L

— Jeff Yarbro (@yarbro) August 9, 2022

https://www.france24.com/en/americas...fied-documents



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Old 08-13-22, 10:28 AM   #3926
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Focus writes:


The FBI launched an investigation into former US President Donald Trump on Friday. The suspicion: violation of the Espionage Act. A published document shows how deep Trump could be in the mess.

Four times the highest secrecy level "Top Secret", three times "secret", three times "confidential" - and once even "Top Secret/SCI". During the raid on Donald Trump's Florida mansion, the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) secured several sets of classified documents.

Top Secret/SCI" refers to top-secret papers that may only be viewed in special government facilities.

Especially documents with the classification "Top Secret/SCI" would usually be kept in specially made facilities, as US military expert Mark Hertling explains. And not in a mansion in Florida.

Now the FBI is investigating Trump. The U.S. magazine "Politico" has published on Saturday night the released search warrant and the list of seized items. On seven pages there is the legitimacy for the raid on the Trump estate and a list of all the documents taken from the house.

It is this seven-page document that shows Trump's mess. It's clear from the list that authorities carried several boxes and sets of top-secret documents out of the House.

Moreover, as the search warrant shows, the FBI was investigating the removal or destruction of records, obstruction of justice and violation of the Espionage Act. This can include offenses beyond spying, such as refusing to return national security documents when requested. A conviction under these laws can result in imprisonment or a fine.

Especially the latter offense does not seem unrealistic in this case. For: at the beginning of the year, it had become known that the U.S. National Archives suspected several boxes with confidential material in Mar-a-Lago. Trump finally handed over numerous documents to the authority in January.

After that, according to coinciding U.S. media reports, there was another exchange between investigators and Trump's lawyers. Officials had suspected that Trump or his team were continuing to withhold important documents.

So now the raid and the discovery of several sets of classified documents. Was Trump deliberately withholding them? Or did he even do worse with them?
Lawyer: Trump released all documents he took home with him

The Trump team is now defending itself against the accusations. On the grounds that Trump had always previously released documents that he had taken with him from the White House to Florida. Thus, these would no longer fall under a secrecy level. The U.S. president is in principle empowered to do so. But: Trump did so without references and without marking the release.

Former FBI agent Asha Rangappa shares on Twitter her incomprehension of the Trump defense. "So Trump telepathically releases hundreds of documents upon his departure. And then what? Biden can also immediately telepathically reclassify them as classified. See how silly that gets? Markings would mean nothing. No one would know how to store things. This is idiotic" , she writes in a lengthy post.

And she asks the crucial question. Why should Trump have kept so many secret documents with him without voluntarily handing them over? "What was the justification? What could be the justification for releasing our nation's top defense secrets?" These are the questions the FBI is now trying to answer in its investigation.
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Old 08-13-22, 11:05 AM   #3927
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For me it's more interesting read what my fellow Danes and Swede write as a comment to this.

Those who's against him has already condemned him to death.

Those who's pro-Trump are convince these paper has been planted by FBI-Reason should be that the elite are afraid of Trump Winning the next Presidential election.

There was one who stood out from the crowd of debaters

He wrote
(From memory)
What about these right wing combatant-If Trump should be found guilty will we see another 6th of Jan all over the USA?

I fear that too-A widespread attack on public buildings such as Governor residents Belong to the Dems

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Old 08-13-22, 12:06 PM   #3928
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cool from 2-daze Napa Register

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Old 08-13-22, 02:11 PM   #3929
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Quote:
Russian state TV mocks US: "We've known about Trump's documents for a long time.

According to Russian media, Trump's seized documents include new nuclear weapons that the US is developing.

In a news report on Russian state-owned TV channel Russia 1, the hosts make fun of the FBI's search of former President Donald Trump's Florida home earlier this week.

Here, FBI agents secured several secret documents. So writes the Wall Street Journal, which has reviewed a list of the items removed from Trump's home, Mar-a-Lago.

However, according to Russian state television, the Moscow authorities have long known about the seized documents, which they have already closely examined.

Russia 1 reports that the documents concern, among other things, new nuclear weapons which the US is allegedly developing.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
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Old 08-13-22, 02:29 PM   #3930
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This is the same Government that FAKED it's Space Program to appear more advanced then it ever was.
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