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Old 11-29-08, 08:20 PM   #181
peabody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tater
Regarding traffic, you can load up multiple campaign layers for the same date range, then turn on time compression and watch them move within the mission editor. Pause it, then do some rough counts, then multiply by the average group size (assuming you know what that is).

It's then possible to get a rough idea of the shipping volume.

The game engine is actually better at IJN/KM campaigns in many ways than USN ones since it assumes the sort of chatty sub behavior that resulted in the horrible losses suffered by the 2 Axis sub services.

I suppose you'll need loads of special transport missions later on, too.

tater
Thanks Tater, you know I often merge the Campaign.LOC to get correct positions for docks and such, but never really thought about merging more than one RND Layer. It is right there staring me in the face and I never saw it.

We will definately have special transport missions, but I am not going to overload it with them, since it is a game. I am trying to at least send them to areas where they can proceed to a area close by and engage the enemy. 15 'supply' missions in a row would get a bit boring in a game. I'm sure it would IRL too, but I am also sure that some players sink more ships in one patrol then some Japanese did in the entire war. So the 'special' missions will be there but not like stock "engage enemy merchant shipping', even though that is what the Allies did, it gets a bit old after a while and you want to run into a Carrier or a BB for a bit of a change.

We have decided to use the doctrine of sinking Warships as a priority, like the Japanese belief but will also include a mixture of other missions too. There will be a few missions where "Sink Enemy Warships" will be a requirement. But I think the majority will be to sink anything that moves. But I think if I don't mess it up, the Task Force traffic will be coming and going from specific locations, not just wandering around the Pacific. For example if they go to attack Guadalcanal, they go to attack Guadalcanal and return to base. So they won't just be wondering around and you may bump into one now and then. They will be in places that make sense for them to be in.

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Old 11-29-08, 09:23 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peabody
15 'supply' missions in a row would get a bit boring in a game. I'm sure it would IRL too...
actually. from my sources, it was boring

Quote:
We have all been driven to boredom...The crew is tired of hauling mail and food and are anxious for at least some action.
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Old 11-29-08, 10:02 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Sledgehammer427
Quote:
Originally Posted by peabody
15 'supply' missions in a row would get a bit boring in a game. I'm sure it would IRL too...
actually. from my sources, it was boring

Quote:
We have all been driven to boredom...The crew is tired of hauling mail and food and are anxious for at least some action.
I am sure it was, but I don't think many people would want to play that game. And I am sure there were a lot of bored Americans too. We had to haul mail and food too.

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Old 11-30-08, 12:14 AM   #184
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but our submarine crews were out blowing the living hell out of everything that had a hull and flew a meatball...they were using outdated doctrinethat called for attacks on taskforces, and, if all else fails...the UPS of the japanese war effort
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Old 11-30-08, 07:54 AM   #185
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Default a little push in the right direction pls

Hi everyone,

i'm new on this Forum and relativly new with the SIM. i downloaded this japanese campaign and installed it in JSGME but it doesn't appear on the start of a new Campaign i can choose between american or german campaign atm. so what did i do wrong?? I patched up to date also.

any help or suggestions are very welcome
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Old 11-30-08, 11:55 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Rowddy
Hi everyone,

i'm new on this Forum and relativly new with the SIM. i downloaded this japanese campaign and installed it in JSGME but it doesn't appear on the start of a new Campaign i can choose between american or german campaign atm. so what did i do wrong?? I patched up to date also.

any help or suggestions are very welcome
The Japanese Campaign has not been released yet. You may have downloaded the subs that are going to be used in it. Keltos built Japanese subs built with German sub parts to make them playable. Then we got together and started working on a Japanese Campaign to put them into. Right now they are working in the German Career or Uboat Add-on.

What was the name of the file you downloaded and I can tell you what you have?

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Old 11-30-08, 12:52 PM   #187
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hmmm, if you downloaded the subs, or one of those pretty little Kaiten packages that keltos made, they are selectable in the German Campaign menu...that is...if you have 1.5
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Old 11-30-08, 01:03 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Sledgehammer427
but our submarine crews were out blowing the living hell out of everything that had a hull and flew a meatball...they were using outdated doctrinethat called for attacks on taskforces, and, if all else fails...the UPS of the japanese war effort
I am not disagreeing with what you are saying but I am not writing "Submerged UPS Truck,version3:Christmas Packages"

We are using their doctrine as the guideline to write this, you will be attacking Task Forces. You will be assigned various mission, you will not stop the supply lines. You can sink merchants when and where you find them if you choose, you are the skipper. But if you are assigned a mission to "Sink Enemy Warships" and you sink merchants, your mission fails. You will get supply missions, too.
Keltos has a lot of facts on the subs, and I have been getting a lot of information by PM from various people recently Admiral Von Gerlach who has sent several, with a lot of info from research and people who were there. And help from Capn Scurvy gave up help with the medals. So there are several people helping with details to try to keep it historical as possible without making it so boring, no one will play it. This is not a complete list, but the ones who helped will be credited in the release and in this thread, upon release.
And the first version will be a Beta (maybe it should be an Alpha) and we will listen to the comments and suggestions and go from there. It may even require some major changes, but we will listen to what you like and don't like. We are trying to make a game you will enjoy playing without making it so realistic (boring) that you hit "Delete".
I didn't realize until doing this that there were several Japanese submarines at Pearl Harbor (I did know about the minisubs) but the subs apparently were not very effective since they didn't sink the Carrier that returned after the attack. But that doesn't mean you won't sink one.
So in the UPS role, it was real, but I am sure there were subs not delivering supplies that don't get talked about because the mission failed. History tends to talk about major wins, major battles, and major failures. Not about the everyday bordom of the ones that were not in the fight today, or the sub that fired ten torpedos and hit nothing. So that is the main reason we are not doing only supply missions. Who knows how many Japanese subs there were that never came back, so no one to tell the story. Who knows for sure how many torpedos were fired at US Carriers that nobody even knows about.
War was hell, some stories we know about, some we don't since nobody survived to tell us what happened.

Anyway that is the bacic ideas involved with the way this is being written.

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Old 11-30-08, 01:37 PM   #189
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The planning of this Campaign sounds excellent in balance .... re the role of the IJN submarine force, one of the most informative books is this one....

The Japanese Submarine Force in WWII by Carl Boyd and Akihiko Yoshido and in the preface they give an outstanding overview....as follows:

"The performance of the Imperial Japanese Navy's Submarine force in World War II fell far short of prewar expectations. The Japanese Naval high command was inacucurate in its antipcation of the type of war it would embark upon in 1941, and the submarine force, in particular, quickly became a victim of unrealistic military planning and preparation. First designed to weaken a United States Fleet of 21 knot dreadnoughts in the western Pacific, the submarine force was from the outset of the war confronted by much faster US Aircraft Carriers after the successful Japanese Attack on battleship row in Pearl Harbor. The submarine force was left groping for an effective strategy and operational plan of action while a sophistaicated US Navy undersea force quickly hardened to the realty of wartime conditions.

The lackluster performance of Japanese submarines in Hawaiiian waters in December 1941 did not compel the high command to modify prewar plans for the submarine force. The formidable undersea arm of the Imperial Navy operated aimlessly and without a coherent strategy in the opening months of 1942. Inflexible prewar battle objectives usually held sway or any new ones were often ill conceived and incomplete. Morevover in the battles of the Coral Sea and Midway the Japanese submarine force again failed to measure up to preware expectations but the opinon of the navy high command continued to hold that submarines should be used chiefly to assist in the decisive battle of capital ships. Then came the surprise American offensive at Guadalcanal, and the crisis situation after late 1942 seemed to require the use of submarines in particularly dangerous supply and evacuation mssions. The fate of the Japanese submarine force was sealed.
The force often operated helter skelter during the war, being constantly obligated to commit submaries to unanticpated and ever increasing and dangerous crisises. Submarines undertook a wide variety of assignments, for example, they were deployed along picket lines in an attmept to ambush and pursue enemy naval forces, only to be ordered and sometimes reorderd to dash elsewhere when enemy forces were discovere beyond the orignal picket lines. Submarines were assigned to reconnoiter heavily guarded enemy ports and advace anchorages. There they sometimes launched midget submarines, human piloted torpedoes and aircraft, with minmal results. Submarine aircraft also droppped a few incideary bombs on Oregon forests and submarine deck guns fired on other rminor targets on the American mainland and various islands. In addition to supply and evacuation operations with bypassed Japanese island garrisons, submarines transported highly explosive gasoline for refueling seaplanes. Moreover the Japanese undertook other dangerous submarine transprot operations with their German allies on the other side of the globe with whom they exchanged personanel and small amounts of strategic goods, such as quinine and tungsten, and blueprints and prototypes of war machinery. There were also varioius forays into the Indian Ocean, but crisis in the Pacific often forced the boats to concentrate there against strong and rapidly advancing Allied forces. These highly dispered operations characterized much of Japanese submarine starategic and operational activity throughout the war. The occasional entreaty advocationg concentration against enemy sea communications and extended US supply lines, particularly to the South Pacific and Australia, was always played down and usually rejected."

I will also note that there were top secret planes to use the largest fleet submarines with on board aircraft to drop plague and other highly infections diseases on the major US cities, of Seattle, San Francisoco, Los Angeles and San Diego. Only top level hostility between the Army and the Fleet prevented this horrific plan from being carried out, and prevented a huge disaster that might indeed have had major effect on the war effort.
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Old 11-30-08, 01:58 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Von Gerlach
The planning of this Campaign sounds excellent in balance .... re the role of the IJN submarine force, one of the most informative books is this one....

The Japanese Submarine Force in WWII by Carl Boyd and Akihiko Yoshido and in the preface they give an outstanding overview....as follows:

"The performance of the Imperial Japanese Navy's Submarine force in World War II fell far short of prewar expectations. The Japanese Naval high command was inacucurate in its antipcation of the type of war it would embark upon in 1941, and the submarine force, in particular, quickly became a victim of unrealistic military planning and preparation. First designed to weaken a United States Fleet of 21 knot dreadnoughts in the western Pacific, the submarine force was from the outset of the war confronted by much faster US Aircraft Carriers after the successful Japanese Attack on battleship row in Pearl Harbor. The submarine force was left groping for an effective strategy and operational plan of action while a sophistaicated US Navy undersea force quickly hardened to the realty of wartime conditions.

The lackluster performance of Japanese submarines in Hawaiiian waters in December 1941 did not compel the high command to modify prewar plans for the submarine force. The formidable undersea arm of the Imperial Navy operated aimlessly and without a coherent strategy in the opening months of 1942. Inflexible prewar battle objectives usually held sway or any new ones were often ill conceived and incomplete. Morevover in the battles of the Coral Sea and Midway the Japanese submarine force again failed to measure up to preware expectations but the opinon of the navy high command continued to hold that submarines should be used chiefly to assist in the decisive battle of capital ships. Then came the surprise American offensive at Guadalcanal, and the crisis situation after late 1942 seemed to require the use of submarines in particularly dangerous supply and evacuation mssions. The fate of the Japanese submarine force was sealed.
The force often operated helter skelter during the war, being constantly obligated to commit submaries to unanticpated and ever increasing and dangerous crisises. Submarines undertook a wide variety of assignments, for example, they were deployed along picket lines in an attmept to ambush and pursue enemy naval forces, only to be ordered and sometimes reorderd to dash elsewhere when enemy forces were discovere beyond the orignal picket lines. Submarines were assigned to reconnoiter heavily guarded enemy ports and advace anchorages. There they sometimes launched midget submarines, human piloted torpedoes and aircraft, with minmal results. Submarine aircraft also droppped a few incideary bombs on Oregon forests and submarine deck guns fired on other rminor targets on the American mainland and various islands. In addition to supply and evacuation operations with bypassed Japanese island garrisons, submarines transported highly explosive gasoline for refueling seaplanes. Moreover the Japanese undertook other dangerous submarine transprot operations with their German allies on the other side of the globe with whom they exchanged personanel and small amounts of strategic goods, such as quinine and tungsten, and blueprints and prototypes of war machinery. There were also varioius forays into the Indian Ocean, but crisis in the Pacific often forced the boats to concentrate there against strong and rapidly advancing Allied forces. These highly dispered operations characterized much of Japanese submarine starategic and operational activity throughout the war. The occasional entreaty advocationg concentration against enemy sea communications and extended US supply lines, particularly to the South Pacific and Australia, was always played down and usually rejected."

I will also note that there were top secret planes to use the largest fleet submarines with on board aircraft to drop plague and other highly infections diseases on the major US cities, of Seattle, San Francisoco, Los Angeles and San Diego. Only top level hostility between the Army and the Fleet prevented this horrific plan from being carried out, and prevented a huge disaster that might indeed have had major effect on the war effort.
I don't know how my little pea brain is going to keep up with all the info you are sending my way.

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Old 11-30-08, 04:25 PM   #191
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FINALLY we will see the (very interesting!) japanese side of this horrible war.

about time!
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Old 11-30-08, 05:55 PM   #192
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wow thanks for all the reponse Ok first of all i have version 1.5 and the version i installed was V3.0_IJN_sub_mod_Jyunseni i must admit i never looked in the U-Boat MOd since i never expected it there

I just made a new reinstall off the game and start all-over Does it mather in which order i'm gonna install the MODS?? i wanna use the real Fleet MOD and many other ones :p
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Old 11-30-08, 07:47 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Rowddy
wow thanks for all the reponse Ok first of all i have version 1.5 and the version i installed was V3.0_IJN_sub_mod_Jyunseni i must admit i never looked in the U-Boat MOd since i never expected it there

I just made a new reinstall off the game and start all-over Does it mather in which order i'm gonna install the MODS?? i wanna use the real Fleet MOD and many other ones :p
That file is four Japanese subs. You can use them in the German Campaign for now.
If you used JSGME to enable the mods, you will have no problem, just disable the subs when you want to use a different mod.

I don't use very many mods, Real Fleet Boat I don't have but it should be for the US subs not German side. Any of the major mods that have a Campaign in them will not work together with the IJN subs, there are flotilla built into the MOD so it will mess up any Campaign files of the other mods. But that is what JSGME is for, just uninstall the others and install the IJN subs and play a German Campaign and you will have the IJN subs. These are the subs that will be used when we get the Japanese Campaign done.

When you want to play another of the major MODS just disable the IJN Subs and enable the other MODS.

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Old 11-30-08, 11:28 PM   #194
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Great thank you very much for all the info i go try it out now. Bah i just remembered still one more thing.

If i download a MOD let's say the Enviromental 5 mod. wenn it's dowloaded i drag it into the left columm of JSGME and then you click the on the littlle arrow in the middle to activate it so it goes to right columm. Now what i sometimes notice with some of the MODS is that wenn i open my SH4 Folder they are not in the MODS folder but are outside of there. Is that normal?? i thougt all MODS should end up in the MODS folder? (it happened actually with the RUIN_V1.0_for_SH4V1.5HI-RES)

Sorry for all the questions but i wanna do it correct this time

Last edited by Rowddy; 11-30-08 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 12-01-08, 01:20 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowddy
Great thank you very much for all the info i go try it out now. Bah i just remembered still one more thing.

If i download a MOD let's say the Enviromental 5 mod. wenn it's dowloaded i drag it into the left columm of JSGME and then you click the on the littlle arrow in the middle to activate it so it goes to right columm. Now what i sometimes notice with some of the MODS is that wenn i open my SH4 Folder they are not in the MODS folder but are outside of there. Is that normal?? i thougt all MODS should end up in the MODS folder? (it happened actually with the RUIN_V1.0_for_SH4V1.5HI-RES)

Sorry for all the questions but i wanna do it correct this time
You don't drag into the window just download and put it in the MODS folder.

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