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Old 07-02-11, 05:18 PM   #631
August
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Enigma View Post
I found his part of the game a bit misleading/unfair.
I thought he was unable to play the game any longer, due to RL.
So I took him of my list.

Later I learned that he wasn't posting anything, but still fulfilling his role of
werewolf.

How can one ever discover which role he is playing when he no longer takes part of the game?
As Neal said all a person really has to do is make a daily vote.

Maybe next time a rule should be added that if you don't vote or abstain your character gets killed off in some neutral fashion like tripping and falling off a cliff or something like that.

The way I see it no good can come from Role Playing. Best to just keep silent.
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Old 07-02-11, 05:39 PM   #632
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Ok, there's good role play and there's cheeze role play. Good role play is playing your character in a realistic and believable fashion. Is he a scaredy cat? Is he brave? Is he stupid? Does he hate women? Is he left handed? Does he smoke? All of these sorts of traits make a fun and believable character. They also guide your decisions on how to react to game events as seen through the eyes of your character. Part of the fun of role playing is taking on a persona that's completely different than your own. Or playing your own persona in a different world.

Good role play also includes acting in a realistic manner to things. Are you a werewolf? Well it might be a good idea not to put your character in a situation where he's going to be watched all night long. Leave yourself an out so that your wolf can go out on his killing spree and be back without anyone knowing he was gone. Is he in a bunkhouse with people sleeping all around him? That's good - he can believably sneak out and be back without waking anyone around him. Is he up drinking with a group of other characters throughout the night? That's bad - it leaves him no time to make his transformation and kill and be back before someone missed him.

Cheeze role play also includes acting on information that you the player has, but your character could not have. Not that anyone would be foolish enough to do it, but if someone in-game was sat by themselves, a mile away from the group and said "I wish I wasn't a werewolf" then your character would have no in game knowlege of that, and it would be cheeze for you to act or vote as if he did. That's asking a lot of players in a game like this, but that's the spirit of what good role play is all about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by August
The way I see it no good can come from Role Playing. Best to just keep silent.
Then why play? That's like saying "I'm going to start a SH3 career in 1944, but I'll probably get sunk so I'll just stay in port."
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Old 07-02-11, 06:05 PM   #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Enigma View Post
I found his part of the game a bit misleading/unfair.
I thought he was unable to play the game any longer, due to RL.
So I took him of my list.

Later I learned that he wasn't posting anything, but still fulfilling his role of
werewolf.

How can one ever discover which role he is playing when he no longer takes part of the game?
That's a very good point, see below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by August View Post
As Neal said all a person really has to do is make a daily vote.

Maybe next time a rule should be added that if you don't vote or abstain your character gets killed off in some neutral fashion like tripping and falling off a cliff or something like that.
I think that's what we will do on the next round. My experience with the original Subsim Werewolf game told me that a few players would sign up but not participate, or only participate in the night actions. Now, in the case of Duc and August, they were both drafted to play, they did not volunteer And I appreciate that they were able to participate to an extent (August a great deal towards the end).

In the future, I think if a player is not active, he's fall off a cliff or something. Nothing personal, but it skews the game to have a low profile player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie View Post
Good role play also includes acting in a realistic manner to things. Are you a werewolf? Well it might be a good idea not to put your character in a situation where he's going to be watched all night long. Leave yourself an out so that your wolf can go out on his killing spree and be back without anyone knowing he was gone. Is he in a bunkhouse with people sleeping all around him? That's good - he can believably sneak out and be back without waking anyone around him. Is he up drinking with a group of other characters throughout the night? That's bad - it leaves him no time to make his transformation and kill and be back before someone missed him.
And that's a point August brought up in PM, about mid game. He was manning a guard post with another player to see if the other guy was a WW. But that won't work and allow the game to work, so no matter how determined you are to pin a player down in the game...these werewolves have the additional power to hypnotize you, go out and kill and return, and you will never know you were asleep


Another factor the Narrator has to be wary of is writing character actions in the narrative. He has to be sure and not give away a character's identity while still making it interesting. Jimbuna was the only character I gave away, I felt I was allowed one, and it would make the game more dynamic.

You go back and read some of the narratives, I tried to make sure when mentioning characters, they could be seen in good or bad lights, independent of their identity.
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Old 07-02-11, 06:19 PM   #634
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In the future, I think if a player is not active, he's fall off a cliff or something.
That would/could solve it.
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Old 07-02-11, 06:33 PM   #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Stevens View Post
And that's a point August brought up in PM, about mid game. He was manning a guard post with another player to see if the other guy was a WW. But that won't work and allow the game to work, so no matter how determined you are to pin a player down in the game...these werewolves have the additional power to hypnotize you, go out and kill and return, and you will never know you were asleep
This is true, there has to be that fall back for a game master to compensate for holes in a player's role play. Hypnosis, to me, is sort of a "soap opera amnesia" trope. It can work if you're forced to do it for storyline and game mechanics sake, but I personally try to not even go there. For example, when I was off in the lighthouse, I was trying to make it back to the castle in game (even though I had my day/night cycle screwed up) so that I could realistically perform my guardian role. It doesn't make any physical sense if I'm off on the other side of the island, but I somehow protect someone miles away. If you want to say it's a mystical psychic projection, then that's one thing. But I try not to lean too heavily on those sorts of plot devices.

As for the inactive player thing - I agree. It's no fun to only have half a group playing. I'd kill them off too.
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Old 07-02-11, 06:50 PM   #636
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Well I guess it's also each player's responsibility to try to line up his actions with the overall storytelling and ingame roleplay of others. That way the narrator doesn't have to bend over backwards in order to keep everything credible and running smoothly.
But maybe next time it should be made very clear that

- This game asks for a lot of involvement, and may take up quite a bit of your (real-life) time. (Not that I would know anything about that though )
- The 'real' game can -for a large part- take place behind the scenes through PM's.
- Roleplaying is important -as it makes it fun, and it's not only about winning, but also about creating a great story with eachother- but generally has no effect on the storyline. Except when the narrator sees fit to make a particular action influence the storyline. (For example, digging yourself in with lots of guns and ammo doesn't protect you from anything, but certain plot-triggers do affect the game. And kudos to Neal for the plot-triggers in this one)

Just my two cents.
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Old 07-02-11, 07:10 PM   #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Stevens View Post
Jimbuna was the only character I gave away, I felt I was allowed one, and it would make the game more dynamic.
Where was that ya bugga?....I must have missed that bit

I do agree on dispensing with those who don't vote or abstain even.

If people won't vote for fear of reprisals or drawing attention to themselves the game would soon get bogged down.
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Old 07-02-11, 07:22 PM   #638
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I agree with killing off players who don't participate at all or don't vote repeatedly, they just make the game unfair. I don't agree with removing players who properly abstain from lynching, though, there's plenty of valid reasons for not voting to lynch someone besides fear of reprisals.
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Old 07-02-11, 07:30 PM   #639
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The way I understood it, was that abstaining from a vote wasn't a problem as long as you actually PM it to the narrator.
I think you could have a reason to abstain from a vote, but at least PM it to Neal (or Mookiemookie next time? ) so it's clear you're playing the game.
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Old 07-02-11, 09:18 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by mookiemookie View Post
Then why play? That's like saying "I'm going to start a SH3 career in 1944, but I'll probably get sunk so I'll just stay in port."
That's not really accurate. A player "leaves port" by just voting. I just think that role playing should be relevant. After all what is the use of having characters if their roles can be, really, should be ignored when it comes to game play?
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Old 07-03-11, 03:10 AM   #641
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How can one ever discover which role he is playing when he no longer takes part of the game?
But that's a really big give away! One werewolf strategy is to keep quiet and not draw attention to himself. I was checking Ducimus' log in times and he was logging in consistently. I checked his posts and he had posted nothing at all, so the only reason to log in was to elect who to attack in a PM. I PMd him when I was suspicious and he didn't reply, even though he had logged in, so would have seen the PM. That's when I knew he was a werewolf, but of course I had no one to tell, without it looking like a diversion. Of course that's not roleplay, that's gameplay.

It's a good strategy for the opening and mid game, but not great for the end gane, when you can't suddenly say "Hey chaps! What's been occuring? Oh noes everyone is dead?! How could that have happened? Why are you all looking at me like that?".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie View Post
Cheeze role play also includes acting on information that you the player has, but your character could not have. Not that anyone would be foolish enough to do it, but if someone in-game was sat by themselves, a mile away from the group and said "I wish I wasn't a werewolf" then your character would have no in game knowlege of that, and it would be cheeze for you to act or vote as if he did.
Didn't AVG do that? . The original game is played round a table where everyone can hear everything anyone says, as the game is to pick up on what people say and the way they act if they know they are 'guilty', or possibly what slip ups they make - e.g. knowing how many werewolves are left, when they shouldn't know.

In game one, Neal put the corpses of my victims near the submarine and also in a later narrative mentioned that I was rowing back to the sub in the small hours alone in a rowing boat. Oh no! Not good, so I had to invent a raid on the pub to get some booze to explain why I was alone, otherwise that could have been as hairy as I was at night. I did this in the style of a journal entry, which no one could have read, but everyone did. But then, if everyone was asleep or not near the sub, how could they have even seen me rowing back? What if your character doesn't go near the scene of the crime? Then you are forced to rely on some other character telling your character specifically that a murder happened, then they'd have to repeat all the details and it would get rather spammy and you only have 12 hours to discuss who the werewolves are and all the time you don't know about the murder is time lost.

Even if two people are in the same room together, they can't read each others thoughts, but people still read them. If you have strict RP rules so that you are not all knowing, then the main feature of the game - the questioning and counter questioning is lost.

I personally, as the SS man had an array of bugs around the whole castle, so I could listen in on everyone's conversations and gain intelligence that way .

The main point of the game if for werewolves to kill all humans and humans to kill all werewolves. Gameplay has to beat Roleplay - as we saw when people were roomed together. Otherwise we could all just cluster in one room with AVG's stockpile of weapons of the future and keep a good eye out for who turned into Robin Williams. Gameplay has to come first, as there are so many ways for roleplay to get in the way of gameplay.

But to help this... how about at the start of the game everyone sees a werewolf attack someone and then they werewolf gets shots so we can all have a good look at it. I think that's how the first game started - with an attack on an NPC. It works for cluedo . Then we don't have to go through the 'werewolves don't exist' stage, which I tried to help along with a good examination of the body and saying that it looked like a bear attack with immense power, so people could start talking about a monster straight away.
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Old 07-03-11, 03:51 AM   #642
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But that's a really big give away! One werewolf strategy is to keep quiet and not draw attention to himself. I was checking Ducimus' log in times and he was logging in consistently. I checked his posts and he had posted nothing at all, so the only reason to log in was to elect who to attack in a PM. I PMd him when I was suspicious and he didn't reply, even though he had logged in, so would have seen the PM. That's when I knew he was a werewolf, but of course I had no one to tell, without it looking like a diversion. Of course that's not roleplay, that's gameplay.
Seeing someone logging on and posting nothing, doesn't mean that much to me.
I do so very often, when I have no time (due to RL) to participate in any thread.

Ducimus also stated somewhere in a msg that he felt sorry not to have time to participate more in the game. He promised to catch up, but he didn't come back in the game.

When it comes to choosing to participate and afterwards discovering that you can't, since RL affairs need your attention is a very good reason to me for no longer taking part of the game.

But how can we (the players and narrator) deal with such situation?
If someone says "Sorry but I can't participate any longer" then that should fall within the category "official statement".

Therefore I'm in favor for the proposed solution to write such person out of the game (done by a narrator).


And about the "cheesing acting".
My approach is to dive into the role, like it were you who is actual living there.
What you say must be consistent, but you have good players and less good players.

Good players can act and play their role, no matter what happens.
I, as a matter of fact, haven't been that consistent with my role.
That happened at the moment when the feeling "winning the game" takes over from the role play.

I can imagine that everybody has strong moments in his role and weaker moments in his role. But is this such a bad thing?
For me it isn't since we all are amateurs in acting and perhaps a better Kaleun.

Also, an extra difficulty for me, was English not being my native language.
Not that I feel ashamed about my grammar, but finding the right words for
describing a place or situation was much harder then I ever imagined.
That you should also take in account as a possibility for less good acting.
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Old 07-03-11, 05:23 AM   #643
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Who knows what's true and what's not in a game of deceipt?

Writing them out is a good way to go, as it frees up a lynch vote, though would affect the balance of the game. If a werewolf goes AWOL, their class could be trasferred to another player - but anyone who had seen that person previously would have to be informed of the change, or you'd get a wolf in sheep's clothing. Likewise if a seer went AWOL, their power and also results from previous seeings they had done would need to be transferred. Even transferring a werewolf has a problem, as you have no way of knowing if a seer told a human that they were a seer and for that human to suddenly become a werewolf and know who to attack...

If a seer/guardian/werewolf does not select a target, then it could be chosen at random. Werewolves can try to lie low or simply miss the dealine - perhaps they should be forced to attack by the maddening blood lust and their target chosen at random?
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Old 07-03-11, 05:43 AM   #644
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Writing them out is a good way to go, as it frees up a lynch vote, though would affect the balance of the game
But hasn't that already happen?
When someone suddenly stops participating, then the story has become unbalanced.
It's up to the remaining participants how to deal with the situation.

Maybe it's a better Idea to write him out of the game, but don't reveal his secret game role.

So when the player who stops, is a werewolf, it may not be necessary to reveal his role.

Sure, there will be some confusion about the amount of werewolves in the game, but I guess that this a part of the fun too.

When done so, everybody knows the actor isn't in the game no more and other players can concentrate on everybody else.
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Old 07-03-11, 06:06 AM   #645
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Maybe this idea is even better.

Neal, is it possible for a next game to give all the participants a new (temporally) logon to subsim?

Example:

The narrator creates all the characters not only for the story, but for logging on to the Subsim forum (game thread only) too.

A German with name "Heinz Oberhause" gets a login with the same name and so on.
Jimbuna get's the roleplay and the logon ID for "Heinz Oberhause", but after a while can no longer participate for reasons of his own.
Behind the scenes, I volunteer to take over the role of "Heinz Oberhause".

The game could continue without any problems.
Or do I miss something?

Also, since nobody knows who's actual ID is behind the actor's ID, the discovery will become even more fun.
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