Russian Nuclear Bombers over Guam

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

LOL...the facts can't be denied

[Jimbuna]

I was surprised to see some sources citing the service ceiling of the U-2 as around the 55,000 feet mark but on second thoughts I think most countries announce lower values and figures to mislead those they'd rather not know

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I was surprised to see some sources citing the service ceiling of the U-2 as around the 55,000 feet mark but on second thoughts I think most countries announce lower values and figures to mislead those they'd rather not know

It is one way to beat the surface to air missiles. False info! I think it is still classified.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

LOL...the facts can't be denied

Don't be modest Jim. You know your stuff on this topic.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

These used to be our answer...

I love the Lightning. Third Wire's "War over Europe" flight sim has the Lightning. I don't how how the real one flies, but in game it is basically a rocket, a danger (to its pilot), can't out turn or out maneuver any other fighter, but very fast. Perfect for intercepting Red bombers or getting in and out of combat quickly.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

LOL...the facts can't be denied

Actually those aren't facts, they're claims. They are all valid and substantiated claims, but there is still a difference.

First, acceleration. The Lightning has an empty weight of 31,068 pounds and maximum thrust with AB is 32,000 lbf (foot/pound) total. The F-15 has an empty weight of 28,000 lb and a maximum thrust of 50,000 lbf. That should tell you something right there. I would have used standard takeoff weights but I coudn't find that number for the Lightning. Maximum takeoff weights are 45,750 lb (Lightning) and 68,000 lb (F-15) which means that the Eagle is the lighter aircraft with more thrust, but can carry a lot more ordinance, which is irrelevant to a discussion on performance.

The Lightning's trademark tail-stand manoeuvre exchanged airspeed for altitude; it could slow to near-stall speeds before commencing level flight.

One of the hallmarks of the F-15 is the wing design, which allows a 70-degree pitchout, meaning the plane is stable through a much tighter turn than normal. It also means that it is stable in a near-vertical attitude in very slow flight. I have personally seen one of their favorite airshow tricks: The plane comes over the field at around a 70-degree angle, only making about 30 knots. Once he is in front of the audience the pilot kicks in the afterburners and the Eagle will accelerate straight up until he is completely out of sight.

The Lightning was, and is, a great aircraft, and among the fastest, but modern aircraft work toward what is most important in a dogfight, and that's maneuverability.

[AVGWarhawk]

Steve, how does a watch work?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

It is one way to beat the surface to air missiles. False info! I think it is still classified.

Most likely and rightly so

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Don't be modest Jim. You know your stuff on this topic.

Modesty my friend...........will get you EVERYWHERE

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I love the Lightning. Third Wire's "War over Europe" flight sim has the Lightning. I don't how how the real one flies, but in game it is basically a rocket, a danger (to its pilot), can't out turn or out maneuver any other fighter, but very fast. Perfect for intercepting Red bombers or getting in and out of combat quickly.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Actually those aren't facts, they're claims. They are all valid and substantiated claims, but there is still a difference.

First, acceleration. The Lightning has an empty weight of 31,068 pounds and maximum thrust with AB is 32,000 lbf (foot/pound) total. The F-15 has an empty weight of 28,000 lb and a maximum thrust of 50,000 lbf. That should tell you something right there. I would have used standard takeoff weights but I coudn't find that number for the Lightning. Maximum takeoff weights are 45,750 lb (Lightning) and 68,000 lb (F-15) which means that the Eagle is the lighter aircraft with more thrust, but can carry a lot more ordinance, which is irrelevant to a discussion on performance.


One of the hallmarks of the F-15 is the wing design, which allows a 70-degree pitchout, meaning the plane is stable through a much tighter turn than normal. It also means that it is stable in a near-vertical attitude in very slow flight. I have personally seen one of their favorite airshow tricks: The plane comes over the field at around a 70-degree angle, only making about 30 knots. Once he is in front of the audience the pilot kicks in the afterburners and the Eagle will accelerate straight up until he is completely out of sight.

The Lightning was, and is, a great aircraft, and among the fastest, but modern aircraft work toward what is most important in a dogfight, and that's maneuverability.

Designed as an 'interceptor' eons ago and fullfilled her requirement adequately

Pity about the crap ordnance she carried

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Designed as an 'interceptor' eons ago and fullfilled her requirement adequately

Pity about the crap ordnance she carried

That could be argued. As far as I am aware the kill ratio of the Lighting is 1:0(and that was a RAF Harrier whose pilot had ejected the plane kept flying so a Lightning was sent to destroy it.) it never got to actually intercept and shoot down an enemy aircraft so we can only take an educated guess as to how well it would actually perform.We also know that it ordnance was lousy so it would have had to resort to the 30mm cannon most likely at least in the early part of its career.

Of course you could also say that given the nature of the Cold War the Lightning was around to give Soviet Long Range Aviation something to worry about and from that stand point the Lighting did a good job.It should aslo be taken into account that of all nations that have employed missile armed interceptors there have only been a handful of combat intercepts of bombers too few to truly evaluate effectiveness. You would have to go back and look at WWII air combat to have solid enough numbers on such aircraft(in the interception role) and of course the Luftwaffe is kind of bomber interception.

The F-15 on the other hand has a ratio of 105.5:0 (though supposedly an JADF F-15 shot down another JDAF F-15 by accident once and two USAF F-15Cs once collided in mind air during 4 vs. 4 training).

As you say as well two different aircraft designed 20 years apart with a differing concept of role.The F-15 was originally designed to be an air superiority fighter(or killing the enemies ability to control air space namely killing fighter aircraft).The F-15 of course can strictly intercept of course but at the time of its design another aircraft the F-106 had this specific duty.Being an air superiority fighter the F-15 needs it agility in both speed and maneuverability.The F-15 has an unfair advantage as well because it used missiles that had over 95% reliability so when an F-15 fires a missile the odds are very high that another aircraft is about to become scrap."F-15 leading supplier of MiG spare parts"

The Lighting on the other hand was designed to intercept bombers and therefore only needed agility in the area of speed and namely climbing it did not need to dog fight.

The Lighting has the advantage of being the best looking 2nd generation jet fighter and is easily the second best looking British designed jet fighter(Hawker Hunter is number 1) and that is easily worth 20,000 points.

[nikimcbee]

@Jim
Do you know if the Lightning had the same/similar rolling problem that the MiG-21 has? I read that MiG-21 pilots had to be really careful when they rolled or they could start an uncontrolable roll

[Bilge_Rat]

Its not really fair to compare the Lightning with the F-15 since they are a generation apart.

If you compare the Lightning with others airplanes of its generation, i.e. Mig-17,-19,-21 or F-100,-104,-4, Mirage III, it fares better. It had equal or better performance/radar than its contemporaries. Only the F-4 would be a superior all around fighter.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Designed as an 'interceptor' eons ago and fullfilled her requirement adequately

And I wouldn't say a bad word about it. Great airplane.

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Its not really fair to compare the Lightning with the F-15 since they are a generation apart.

And that was Jim's original point. Even a generation later the Lightning is still a great airplane. I have no idea what its capabilities as a dogfighter may have been, and now we'll never know, but the purpose of an interceptor was to intercept nuclear bombers. This was the purpose of the F-104 and its contemporaries. Dogfighting and air superiority were considered secondary to that single purpose.

Only the F-4 would be a superior all around fighter.

The Phantom II has always amazed me. It was designed as one of those late-'50s interceptors. It had a fairly poor thrust/weight ratio, which gave it mediocre acceleration and climb, a terrible turn radius, was bloated and heavy, and originally it didn't even have a gun. With all that against it the plane still managed to rack up a very good kill ratio in Vietnam. Part of that was due to the combination of radar and heat-seeking AIM-9 Sidewinders, and part of it was due to its pilots figuring out tactics that used its strengths and played down its weaknesses.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The Phantom II has always amazed me. .... It had a fairly poor thrust/weight ratio, which gave it mediocre acceleration and climb

Despite the imposing dimensions and a maximum takeoff weight of over 60,000 pounds (27,000 kg), the F-4 was capable of reaching a top speed of Mach 2.23 and had an initial climb rate of over 41,000 feet per minute (210 m/s). Shortly after its introduction, the Phantom set 16 world records, including an absolute speed record of 1,606.342 miles per hour (2,585.086 km/h), and an absolute altitude record of 98,557 feet (30,040 m). Although set in 1959-1962, five of the speed records were not broken until 1975.

http://www.guideall.com/f4phantom.htm

To show off their new fighter, the Navy led a series of record-breaking flights early in Phantom development: All in all, the Phantom set 16 world records. With the exception of Skyburner, all records were achieved in unmodified production aircraft. Five of the speed records remained unbeaten until the F-15 Eagle appeared in 1975.

• Operation Top Flight: On 6 December 1959, the second XF4H-1 performed a zoom climb to a world record 98,557 ft (30,040 m). The previous record of 94,658 ft (28,852 m) was set by a Soviet Sukhoi T-43-1 prototype. Commander Lawrence E. Flint, Jr., USN accelerated his aircraft to Mach 2.5 at 47,000 ft (14,330 m) and climbed to 90,000 ft (27,430 m) at a 45° angle. He then shut down the engines and glided to the peak altitude. As the aircraft fell through 70,000 ft (21,300 m), Flint restarted the engines and resumed normal flight.
• On 5 September 1960, an F4H-1 averaged 1,216.78 mph (1,958.16 km/h) over a 500 km (311 mi) closed-circuit course.
• On 25 September 1960, an F4H-1 averaged 1,390.21 mph (2,237.26 km/h) over a 100 km (62.1 mi) closed-circuit course.
• Operation LANA: To celebrate the 50th anniversary of Naval aviation (L is the Roman numeral for 50 and ANA stood for Anniversary of Naval Aviation) on 24 May 1961, Phantoms flew across the continental United States in under three hours and included several tanker refuelings. The fastest of the aircraft averaged 869.74 mph (1,400.28 km/h) and completed the trip in 2 hours 47 minutes, earning the pilot (and future NASA Astronaut), Lieutenant Richard Gordon, USN and RIO, Lieutenant Bobbie Young, USN, the 1961 Bendix trophy.
• Operation Sageburner: On 28 August 1961, a Phantom averaged 902.769 mph (1,452.826 km/h) over a 3 mi (4.82 km) course flying below 125 feet (38.1 m) at all times. Commander J.L. Felsman, USN was killed during the first attempt at this record on 18 May 1961 when his aircraft disintegrated in the air after pitch damper failure.
• Operation Skyburner: On 22 December 1961, a modified Phantom with water injection set an absolute world record speed of 1,606.342 mph (2,585.086 km/h).
• On 5 December 1961, another Phantom set a sustained altitude record of 66,443.8 feet (20,252 m).
• Operation High Jump: A series of time-to-altitude records was set in early 1962: 34.523 seconds to 3,000 meters (9,840 ft), 48.787 seconds to 6,000 meters (19,700 ft), 61.629 seconds to 9,000 meters (29,500 ft), 77.156 seconds to 12,000 meters (39,400 ft), 114.548 seconds to 15,000 meters (49,200 ft), 178.5 seconds to 20,000 meters (65,600 ft), 230.44 seconds to 25,000 metres (82,000 ft), and 371.43 seconds to 30,000 metres (98,400 ft).

• 
  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-4_Phantom_II


Mediocre acceleration and climb eh?

I do not think that word means what you think it means.