U-864 is finally being raised!

[Letum]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

What in the hell do you need 67 tons of mecury for munitions?

Thats a hella lot of tilt switches or was it used for other things?

It has many uses:

• Fuses
• Rocket fuel production
• An old fashioned way of enriching uranium
• Auto-pilot and rocket systems
• Old fashioned electrics. Especially arc valves for power plants
• Optics, especially naval.
• Batteries
• It is expensive

The Germans also shipped radioactive materials mixed in mercury, but it is not clear why.
U-859's mercury only contains trace radioactive materials as a by product of it's
method of extraction tho.

[August]

They won't raise the boat. Not broken in pieces with 64 years of deterioration. I'll bet they pump out as much of it's cargo as possible then seal the wreck.

[bookworm_020]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

67 Tons worth... yea thats cause for concearn.

That's an understatement!

[Letum]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

The German navy should have a full military honor guard present who will all salute arms when the boat breaks the surface.

I disagree.
Those who fought for the Nazis should be respected in death as humans, but not
honored in death as soldiers.

Personally I understand the need to respect a designated war grave that I'm sure this sub is seen as. It would make sense to remove the mercury without actually hauling any part of the sub up to the surface. However, I'm also interested in WW 2 wrecks especially in near-by Scandinavian waters.

If there's a wreck that sank and nobody went down with it, it would be ok to raise it? Nobody would say no to that? What about raising some cargo, I know that quite a lot of cargo went to the bottom of the sea in the Barents sea with the Arctic convoys, PQ-17 depicted in my sig image.

[stabiz]

Originally Posted by Letum

I disagree.
Those who fought for the Nazis should be respected in death as humans, but not
honored in death as soldiers.

I totally disagree. They fought for their country. If Himmler sank in a one man sub full of mercury, I would agree that a saluting band would be wierd.

[McBeck]

The german submarine service was know to fight for the country - not for the Nazi party. Any kind of Nazi propagande was not allowed on the bases or boats.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by stabiz

I totally disagree. They fought for their country. If Himmler sank in a one man sub full of mercury, I would agree that a saluting band would be wierd.

What part of their country do you think they where fighting for?
They certainly didn't fight for the freedom loving, peaceful or humane part.

The allies fought for those parts of Germany, not the German army.

The men entombed in U864 fought for much less desirable aspects of Germany. That
makes them human and does not lessen the tragedy of their death, but it does not
bring them any honor, glory or righteousness.

[Hitman]

What part of their country do you think they where fighting for?

For their families. I have readed lots of books with 1st person accounts and have many friends whose grandfather fought in WW2, and what all of them will tell you is the same: They fought for victory because defeat would mean the terror and chaos for their beloved ones. More than anything, they feared the Red Army and in the eastern front war on the defensive was desperate because of that. They knew what came with the invasion of the Red Army: Death, rape and destruction of everything they loved, mainly in a horrible and saddist way.

BTW incidentally the russians thought the very same of the "german hordes" and also fought the german army desperately because of the same reasons. Not because of being "good bolschevists".

Politicians start wars, most soldiers just obbey and once the disaster has started, they don't want their families to be in the losing side. Just that.

[Morts]

Originally Posted by Hitman

For their families. I have readed lots of books with 1st person accounts and have many friends whose grandfather fought in WW2, and what all of them will tell you is the same: They fought for victory because defeat would mean the terror and chaos for their beloved ones. More than anything, they feared the Red Army and in the eastern front war on the defensive was desperate because of that. They knew what came with the invasion of the Red Army: Death, rape and destruction of everything they loved, mainly in a horrible and saddist way.

BTW incidentally the russians thought the very same of the "german hordes" and also fought the german army desperately because of the same reasons. Not because of being "good bolschevists".

Politicians start wars, most soldiers just obbey and once the disaster has started, they don't want their families to be in the losing side. Just that.

exactly

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Politicians start wars, most soldiers just obbey and once the disaster has started, they don't want their families to be in the losing side. Just that.

I'm sure if that was the case for some in the German military, then it makes them
honorable people in so far as they had good intentions, however, it is a big leap
from that to say that they deserve military honors.

As humans they may have wanted just to protect their family, but as soldiers in the
German military, they where trying to invade most of Europe and facilitate genocide.
These where he military objectives for them.

Certainly honor them as humans, scared about their families future etc. but not as
soldiers taking part in a utterly unjust war; there is no honor in that.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

I'm sure if that was the case for some in the German military, then it makes them
honorable people in so far as they had good intentions, however, it is a big leap
from that to say that they deserve military honors.

As humans they may have wanted just to protect their family, but as soldiers in the
German military, they where trying to invade most of Europe and facilitate genocide.
These where he military objectives for them.

Certainly honor them as humans, scared about their families future etc. but not as
soldiers taking part in a utterly unjust war; there is no honor in that.

On the other hand even in WW2 when the situation allowed for it enemy soldiers were occasionally given military funerals, so I see no reason not to let the Germans honor their U-864 dead if it so chooses.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by Letum

What part of their country do you think they where fighting for?
They certainly didn't fight for the freedom loving, peaceful or humane part.

The allies fought for those parts of Germany, not the German army.

The men entombed in U864 fought for much less desirable aspects of Germany. That
makes them human and does not lessen the tragedy of their death, but it does not
bring them any honor, glory or righteousness.

It still makes them soldiers and as such they deserve a burrial with soldiers honours.

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by August

On the other hand even in WW2 when the situation allowed for it enemy soldiers were occasionally given military funerals, so I see no reason not to let the Germans honor their U-864 dead if it so chooses.

I agree with August whole heartedly. Their grave is being disturbed after this many years. Yes for good reason but, it's still being disturbed

[Schroeder]

@Letum

If the UK should ever start an unjust war and draft you I bet you will just say "I don't want to take part in this!" and bravely meet the firing squad....

(I know the U-boat crews were not drafted, but everyone who didn't volunteer was drafted and likely sent to the infantry.)