Deck Gun, For or Aft Mount

mido · 12-07-11, 09:32 AM

How can one change the deck gun position from the rear to the front? It is kind of uncomfortable to have the deck gun aft mount.

Diopos · 12-07-11, 09:52 AM

When in port, you can "buy" a fore mounting cannon if it's available and you have the "renown" to do so,
BUT
I would strongly suggest you "save" before such an upgrade because depending on fleetboat type, game version and activated modes you may end up with no cannon at all !!!

Anyway, aft guns are really handy when you're trying to escape on the surface. A sub would generally go into voluntary surface action under very "safe" circumstances (unarmed or seriously disabled/lightly armed targets). Under such circumstances the "akward" position of an aft gun is a secondary nuisance ...

mido · 12-07-11, 10:01 AM

Thanks for your reply. I realize that it strongly depends on the mods one uses. It is quite simple in TMO but I am checking on RFB with RSRDC at the moment. Do you have an idea how you can change it with this combination of mods? There is no option at the start of a career.

Note: Moderator, if this is in the wrong forum now since it became mod related, please move.

I'm goin' down · 12-07-11, 01:30 PM

[QUOTE=Diopos;1801204]When in port, you can "buy" a fore mounting cannon if it's available and you have the "renown" to do so,...[QUOTE]

Josey Wales · 01-13-12, 01:19 PM

Not sure if its the mod, or if this is game bug, Im running version 1.5 with optical targeting corrrection but my crew for my deck gun was gone after I upgraded my deck gun in port from aft to fore now no crew slots for deck gun and no way to get them back. when playing the crew says they will man deck gun and button lights up but no shooting i have to man fire, and reload takes longer, My question has anyone ran into this, and can it be fixed, didnt notice till halfway through next mission and hate to go back. Thanks!

john9001 · 01-13-12, 01:25 PM

the aft mounted gun is not that big a handicap to firing forward, you only have to change course a little to bring the gun to bear. i did it last night to finish off a small freighter.

Loudspeaker · 01-14-12, 07:16 AM

It's kinda weird why anyone would place a gun on the aft of a sub. You will need to be moving away from your target, or you will need to expose your broad side to it, which is not a very wise thing to do, if it has guns itself. If you are approaching an unaware target at high speed, surely you would like to open the ball without having to turn your boat around for the first shot.

The aft mounted gun is in my opinion one of the odds of history and submarine design.

donna52522 · 01-14-12, 08:32 AM

I prefer the aft deck gun, in TMO's optional mods, I always pick the "aft gun only" mod. It's by no means a handicap. When finishing off a wounded ship, all it takes to bring the gun to bare is to maneuver before you surface.

Richard O'kane preferred the aft deck gun for the fact that the only time he would need it was while heading away from trouble. Historically there was more deck room for the gun crew to operate on the aft deck. It's possible that it cut down underwater drag for the boat as well.

WernherVonTrapp · 01-14-12, 10:22 AM

This is an old issue that has been brought up numerous times. It's all a matter of preference and there are arguments, both pro & con, to fore and aft mounts. As Donna has shown, even RL skippers had their own preferences.

Sailor Steve · 01-14-12, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donna52522

IIt's possible that it cut down underwater drag for the boat as well.

A good point, and one I don't think has ever been raised before.

mido · 01-14-12, 10:44 AM

I have read that some skippers had them taken off their fleet boats all together in order to reduce draft.

Hylander_1314 · 01-15-12, 06:39 AM

Later in the war, you will want a deckgun, especially if you use RSRCD. Since most of the traffic you will see, will be small vessels like sampans, and fishing boats.

But if you have aft deckguns when starting the game, don't accept a foredeck gun. That is the problem, that you will lose the crew on the gun. A stock bug that is hardcoded from what I understand.

Sailor Steve · 01-15-12, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loudspeaker

It's kinda weird why anyone would place a gun on the aft of a sub. You will need to be moving away from your target, or you will need to expose your broad side to it, which is not a very wise thing to do, if it has guns itself. If you are approaching an unaware target at high speed, surely you would like to open the ball without having to turn your boat around for the first shot.

If you look at any wartime picture or video, the boat is almost always broadside to its target, no matter where the gun is placed. Directly forward is not exactly stable. Of course no direction on a submarine is truly stable.

Quote:

The aft mounted gun is in my opinion one of the odds of history and submarine design.

Good thing it's only your opinion.

Platapus · 01-15-12, 12:08 PM

In ship to ship gunnery action, it is safer to be broadside to your target than nose/tail on.

Consider that in targeting with a gun, there are two separate parts of the targeting, each with its own circle of error.

Bearing and range.

Now the error in bearing is pretty small. It is pretty easy to to get the bearing of the target to within one degree.

Range is another matter. First there is the error in determining the range to the target, and then there is the error in hitting that specific range from a non-motionless platform (ship/sub). This applies to ranges where indirect fire is used. If the ship is close enough, range errors are insignificant. Any effects of the waves will most likely increase the range error and not the bearing error.

So to be safe from enemy gun fire you want to be in a position that increases the failure due to range errors.

If you are broadside, the enemy can determine the bearing as easily as if you were nose/tail on. But by placing yourself broadside you are exposing the narrow width of your sub against the multiple errors in range from the enemy. They may have the bearing but it is more likely that they will under/overshoot due to range errors and errors in platform stability.

If you were end on, your entire length of your submarine will be in the range error direction. An under/overshoot has a better chance of hitting some part of your submarine.

This is easily tested by placing a stationary ship in the game. Maneuver your submarine so that the ship is either end on or broadside to your submarine. See how the difficulty changes in hitting the ship using indirect fire. It is much easier to hit a ship that is end on than broadside.

So keep your submarine end on to avoid detection, but once the gun play starts. broadside for the survival

01-15-12, 12:33 PM

In as much as a gun on a submarine makes sense then an aft mount makes as much sense as one mounted forward.

Fleet boats had their conning towers relatively farther forward than U-Boats. This left more space aft.

Spray interference from the bow would not affect an aft mounted gun.

What's the gun for? With complete firepower superiority it matters not at all where the gun is mounted since the sub has freedom of maneuver. Without total firepower superiority you have no reason to voluntarily use a gun from a vessel as vulnerable as a submarine.

If you have to escape on the surface and under fire, the aft gun mount simplifies and improves your course options as its "A" arc will be towards the enemy as you flee.

Most Fleet Boat captains did fine with aft mounted guns although many never actually used them on patrol. I would suggest that gamers love deck guns far more than real life skippers ever did.

12-07-11, 09:32 AM	#1
mido Engineer Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Dominican Republic Posts: 203 Downloads: 191 Uploads: 1	Deck Gun, For or Aft Mount How can one change the deck gun position from the rear to the front? It is kind of uncomfortable to have the deck gun aft mount.

12-07-11, 09:52 AM	#2
Diopos Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Athens, the original one. Posts: 1,226 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	When in port, you can "buy" a fore mounting cannon if it's available and you have the "renown" to do so, BUT I would strongly suggest you "save" before such an upgrade because depending on fleetboat type, game version and activated modes you may end up with no cannon at all !!! Anyway, aft guns are really handy when you're trying to escape on the surface. A sub would generally go into voluntary surface action under very "safe" circumstances (unarmed or seriously disabled/lightly armed targets). Under such circumstances the "akward" position of an aft gun is a secondary nuisance ... __________________ - Oh God! They're all over the place! CRASH DIVE!!! - Ehm... we can't honey. We're in the car right now. - What?... er right... Doesn't matter! We'll give it a try anyway!

01-13-12, 01:19 PM	#5
Josey Wales Swabbie Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 9 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	deck gun crew disappeared Not sure if its the mod, or if this is game bug, Im running version 1.5 with optical targeting corrrection but my crew for my deck gun was gone after I upgraded my deck gun in port from aft to fore now no crew slots for deck gun and no way to get them back. when playing the crew says they will man deck gun and button lights up but no shooting i have to man fire, and reload takes longer, My question has anyone ran into this, and can it be fixed, didnt notice till halfway through next mission and hate to go back. Thanks!

01-14-12, 10:22 AM	#9
WernherVonTrapp Admiral Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Now, alot farther from NYC. Posts: 2,228 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 0	This is an old issue that has been brought up numerous times. It's all a matter of preference and there are arguments, both pro & con, to fore and aft mounts. As Donna has shown, even RL skippers had their own preferences. __________________ "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." -Miyamoto Musashi ------------------------------------------------------- "What is truth?" -Pontius Pilate

01-15-12, 06:39 AM	#12
Hylander_1314 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2006 Location: 5 Miles Inland West Of Lake Huron Posts: 1,936 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	Later in the war, you will want a deckgun, especially if you use RSRCD. Since most of the traffic you will see, will be small vessels like sampans, and fishing boats. But if you have aft deckguns when starting the game, don't accept a foredeck gun. That is the problem, that you will lose the crew on the gun. A stock bug that is hardcoded from what I understand. __________________ A legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law. -John Marshall Chief Justice of the Supreme Court ---------------------

12-07-11, 10:01 AM	#3
mido Engineer Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Dominican Republic Posts: 203 Downloads: 191 Uploads: 1	Thanks for your reply. I realize that it strongly depends on the mods one uses. It is quite simple in TMO but I am checking on RFB with RSRDC at the moment. Do you have an idea how you can change it with this combination of mods? There is no option at the start of a career. Note: Moderator, if this is in the wrong forum now since it became mod related, please move.

12-07-11, 01:30 PM	#4
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	[QUOTE=Diopos;1801204]When in port, you can "buy" a fore mounting cannon if it's available and you have the "renown" to do so,...[QUOTE]

01-13-12, 01:25 PM	#6
john9001 Swabbie Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	the aft mounted gun is not that big a handicap to firing forward, you only have to change course a little to bring the gun to bear. i did it last night to finish off a small freighter.

01-14-12, 07:16 AM	#7
Loudspeaker Bosun Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 69 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	It's kinda weird why anyone would place a gun on the aft of a sub. You will need to be moving away from your target, or you will need to expose your broad side to it, which is not a very wise thing to do, if it has guns itself. If you are approaching an unaware target at high speed, surely you would like to open the ball without having to turn your boat around for the first shot. The aft mounted gun is in my opinion one of the odds of history and submarine design.

01-14-12, 08:32 AM	#8
donna52522 Lady Mariner Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 544 Downloads: 225 Uploads: 0	I prefer the aft deck gun, in TMO's optional mods, I always pick the "aft gun only" mod. It's by no means a handicap. When finishing off a wounded ship, all it takes to bring the gun to bare is to maneuver before you surface. Richard O'kane preferred the aft deck gun for the fact that the only time he would need it was while heading away from trouble. Historically there was more deck room for the gun crew to operate on the aft deck. It's possible that it cut down underwater drag for the boat as well.

01-14-12, 10:44 AM	#11
mido Engineer Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Dominican Republic Posts: 203 Downloads: 191 Uploads: 1	I have read that some skippers had them taken off their fleet boats all together in order to reduce draft.

01-15-12, 12:08 PM	#14
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 18,951 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	In ship to ship gunnery action, it is safer to be broadside to your target than nose/tail on. Consider that in targeting with a gun, there are two separate parts of the targeting, each with its own circle of error. Bearing and range. Now the error in bearing is pretty small. It is pretty easy to to get the bearing of the target to within one degree. Range is another matter. First there is the error in determining the range to the target, and then there is the error in hitting that specific range from a non-motionless platform (ship/sub). This applies to ranges where indirect fire is used. If the ship is close enough, range errors are insignificant. Any effects of the waves will most likely increase the range error and not the bearing error. So to be safe from enemy gun fire you want to be in a position that increases the failure due to range errors. If you are broadside, the enemy can determine the bearing as easily as if you were nose/tail on. But by placing yourself broadside you are exposing the narrow width of your sub against the multiple errors in range from the enemy. They may have the bearing but it is more likely that they will under/overshoot due to range errors and errors in platform stability. If you were end on, your entire length of your submarine will be in the range error direction. An under/overshoot has a better chance of hitting some part of your submarine. This is easily tested by placing a stationary ship in the game. Maneuver your submarine so that the ship is either end on or broadside to your submarine. See how the difficulty changes in hitting the ship using indirect fire. It is much easier to hit a ship that is end on than broadside. So keep your submarine end on to avoid detection, but once the gun play starts. broadside for the survival __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

01-15-12, 12:33 PM	#15
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	In as much as a gun on a submarine makes sense then an aft mount makes as much sense as one mounted forward. Fleet boats had their conning towers relatively farther forward than U-Boats. This left more space aft. Spray interference from the bow would not affect an aft mounted gun. What's the gun for? With complete firepower superiority it matters not at all where the gun is mounted since the sub has freedom of maneuver. Without total firepower superiority you have no reason to voluntarily use a gun from a vessel as vulnerable as a submarine. If you have to escape on the surface and under fire, the aft gun mount simplifies and improves your course options as its "A" arc will be towards the enemy as you flee. Most Fleet Boat captains did fine with aft mounted guns although many never actually used them on patrol. I would suggest that gamers love deck guns far more than real life skippers ever did.