Tank Bustin' Tonys ?

Sammy-rai · 03-17-22, 01:18 PM

Not sure where to post this thread but I assume it concerns a mod of the Kawasaki KI-61 'Tony'.

Last night (October 1942 in gametime) my Salmon-class USS Snapper was on the receiving of a strafing run by a pair of KI-61 Tonys. They caught the Snapper while in the act of crash-diving and proceeded to knock out more than 2/3 of the sub's systems, including both diesel and electric engines and all sensor systems. On only that one strafing run. Ten seconds later, the sub was declared sunk with all hands on board.

Being familiar with the armament of Tonys, I knew that the result was completely unrealistic. Normal armament for a Tony was 2 20mm cannons and 2 12.7mm machine guns, which is about the same as a Zero's.

With this armament the best one could hope for would probably be to chew up the deck and damage a deck gun. Single-engine Japanese fighters could not sink subs with their normal armament no matter how many firing passes they made.

So I tried to look up the weapon tables for a Tony and found SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Silent_Hunter_4_FOTR \Data\Air\AFB_Ki61\AFB_Ki61.eqp.

The last two entries in this file are:
[Equipment 11]
NodeName=A01
LinkName=40mmSingleAir

[Equipment 12]
NodeName=A02
LinkName=40mmSingleAir

; ++++++ The End +++++

If I understand the file correctly, then sometimes the Tony attacks with the firepower of 40mm cannons, which is tank-busting firepower and not correct.

I'm guessing that this is what happened when the Tonys sank my sub with a single firing pass.

It seems that this is probably a typo and should be changed to LinkName=20mmSingleAir. This is what I have done in my file and ask that someone check and possibly edit this info with regard to future distribution of these Tony files.

My SH4 build consists of FOTR Ultimate 1.7, Kaigun Maru, Nippon Maru, and Fleet Interiors mods. No other active mods.

Bubblehead1980 · 03-17-22, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammy-rai

Not sure where to post this thread but I assume it concerns a mod of the Kawasaki KI-61 'Tony'.

Last night (October 1942 in gametime) my Salmon-class USS Snapper was on the receiving of a strafing run by a pair of KI-61 Tonys. They caught the Snapper while in the act of crash-diving and proceeded to knock out more than 2/3 of the sub's systems, including both diesel and electric engines and all sensor systems. On only that one strafing run. Ten seconds later, the sub was declared sunk with all hands on board.

Being familiar with the armament of Tonys, I knew that the result was completely unrealistic. Normal armament for a Tony was 2 20mm cannons and 2 12.7mm machine guns, which is about the same as a Zero's.

With this armament the best one could hope for would probably be to chew up the deck and damage a deck gun. Single-engine Japanese fighters could not sink subs with their normal armament no matter how many firing passes they made.

So I tried to look up the weapon tables for a Tony and found SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Silent_Hunter_4_FOTR \Data\Air\AFB_Ki61\AFB_Ki61.eqp.

The last two entries in this file are:
[Equipment 11]
NodeName=A01
LinkName=40mmSingleAir

[Equipment 12]
NodeName=A02
LinkName=40mmSingleAir

; ++++++ The End +++++

If I understand the file correctly, then sometimes the Tony attacks with the firepower of 40mm cannons, which is tank-busting firepower and not correct.

I'm guessing that this is what happened when the Tonys sank my sub with a single firing pass.

It seems that this is probably a typo and should be changed to LinkName=20mmSingleAir. This is what I have done in my file and ask that someone check and possibly edit this info with regard to future distribution of these Tony files.

My SH4 build consists of FOTR Ultimate 1.7, Kaigun Maru, Nippon Maru, and Fleet Interiors mods. No other active mods.

Hi, the FOTRS thread would be best for this post . Definitely something they will want to look at. Link below.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...d.php?t=243064

propbeanie · 03-17-22, 07:23 PM

It is always better to post in the mod thread, so we can more easily track reported issues, such as this. You could well be correct in that being a typo, but it might also be purposeful, from the original FOTRS days. The planes otherwise would be rather anemic. With FotRSU, we have done minimal "adjustment" to weapons, but all planes are set to "Elite", so that they "fly" better, else you would see about 1/2 of them crashing instead of the 25% that currently do...

- we'll do some testing though with both the 40 and 20 mm guns, and see what works best for the mod. The 20mm should indeed also be capable of puncturing a sub's "armour" (or lack thereof) and compromise its hull integrity in quick order. As to sinking your boat, if your hull is compromised, you need to pay attention to the damage, and use that as a sort-of guide as to how deep you can go. 50% hull damage means you better not go much below PD, if you even make it that deep, due to the "water pressure" encountered... As you can well imagine what our usual advice is: "avoid airplanes whenever possible."...

Thanks for the report. As always, these reports are extremely helpful to all.

Sammy-rai · 03-18-22, 06:20 AM

OK, thanks for the replies. I'm not a sub expert but my opinion is that it's very unlikely that a strafing run by 2 20mm equipped fighters could result in a submarine sinking 10 seconds later.

But it sounds plausible that if they got very lucky, they could inflict enough damage to force the sub back to the surface after some minutes due to leaks (which could eventually be repaired). And then the sub would have to duke it out with the aircraft. That would be interesting !!

What struck me about the attack upon my sim sub was that the sub was fatally wrecked so quickly. I had expected to get a lot of time to repair some leaks but instead experienced massive system failures. Then game over.

Anyway, I googled the subject and found this link:

https://www.history.navy.mil/content...dfs/Appen3.pdf

It is record of USN sinkings of U-boats and IJN subs. I skimmed and didn't find any examples of these boats being damaged by aircraft gunfire. I'm thinking that many of these U-boats did receive aircraft gunfire but it was not significant. In all the cases I found that fatal damage was inflicted by depth charges \ bombs \ mines \ torpedoes.

Bubblehead1980 · 03-18-22, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammy-rai

OK, thanks for the replies. I'm not a sub expert but my opinion is that it's very unlikely that a strafing run by 2 20mm equipped fighters could result in a submarine sinking 10 seconds later.

But it sounds plausible that if they got very lucky, they could inflict enough damage to force the sub back to the surface after some minutes due to leaks (which could eventually be repaired). And then the sub would have to duke it out with the aircraft. That would be interesting !!

What struck me about the attack upon my sim sub was that the sub was fatally wrecked so quickly. I had expected to get a lot of time to repair some leaks but instead experienced massive system failures. Then game over.

Anyway, I googled the subject and found this link:

https://www.history.navy.mil/content...dfs/Appen3.pdf

It is record of USN sinkings of U-boats and IJN subs. I skimmed and didn't find any examples of these boats being damaged by aircraft gunfire. I'm thinking that many of these U-boats did receive aircraft gunfire but it was not significant. In all the cases I found that fatal damage was inflicted by depth charges \ bombs \ mines \ torpedoes.

I agree. Machine guns, auto cannons like 20 mm 25 mm, esp enemy being overpowered have long been a issue in SH 4. One problem is devs of SH 4 got lazy and had a lot of guns, both those used by AI enemy and player guns share shells, so from what was told if you reduce power, you will nerf your guns. Because they interact with different damage models (player sub vs AI ships) can be problematic.

Plus, far as I know no one has ever been able to fully track down the shells used because its complicated and not easy to discern exactly.

Sustained hits from 40MM or larger would likely damage pressure hull to some degree but doubt could sink a sub unless previously damage.The 20 mm and machine guns were mainly a threat to superstructure, topside equipment , and any crew topside, not so much the pressure hull itself. Definitely not enough to sink it .

propbeanie · 03-18-22, 01:07 PM

I don't want to belabor the point too much, but there are all kinds of 20mm cannon vidz on the inet ToobYuze, and they are a very destructive weapon, which is one reason it was such a popular gun during ww2 for all nations. As an example:

Shooting an engine block, in one side, out the other. Shooting a sewer lid, though you do have to wait for them to shoot the AP shell:

Granted, they are both of cast steel, but still... In other words, I would not expose my sub purposefully to a 20mm round. The fact that you sank in 10 seconds most likely does not reflect on the ammo or gun, but rather on the sub itself. Perhaps you had already sustained damage earlier?

Also note that the gun entries on the Ki-44 in the eqp file are "fake", and that all three of the planes have an onboard "MG" machine gun, and NOT a 40mm. There is nothing to mount the 40 or the 20mm to on the platform. Also note that we found evidence that the Ki-44 did indeed mount a 40mm later in the war, so if we change the guns around a bit, and add a cfg#A01 and 2 mount points for a 20mm, the Ki-44 will upgrade to a 40 in 1945. The 61 and 84, being faster, lighter, higher-climbing planes, did not get the 40mm due to the weight of the weapon.

03-17-22, 01:18 PM	#1
Sammy-rai Seaman Join Date: Dec 2021 Location: Norway Posts: 39 Downloads: 28 Uploads: 0	Tank Bustin' Tonys ? Not sure where to post this thread but I assume it concerns a mod of the Kawasaki KI-61 'Tony'. Last night (October 1942 in gametime) my Salmon-class USS Snapper was on the receiving of a strafing run by a pair of KI-61 Tonys. They caught the Snapper while in the act of crash-diving and proceeded to knock out more than 2/3 of the sub's systems, including both diesel and electric engines and all sensor systems. On only that one strafing run. Ten seconds later, the sub was declared sunk with all hands on board. Being familiar with the armament of Tonys, I knew that the result was completely unrealistic. Normal armament for a Tony was 2 20mm cannons and 2 12.7mm machine guns, which is about the same as a Zero's. With this armament the best one could hope for would probably be to chew up the deck and damage a deck gun. Single-engine Japanese fighters could not sink subs with their normal armament no matter how many firing passes they made. So I tried to look up the weapon tables for a Tony and found SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Silent_Hunter_4_FOTR \Data\Air\AFB_Ki61\AFB_Ki61.eqp. The last two entries in this file are: [Equipment 11] NodeName=A01 LinkName=40mmSingleAir [Equipment 12] NodeName=A02 LinkName=40mmSingleAir ; ++++++ The End +++++ If I understand the file correctly, then sometimes the Tony attacks with the firepower of 40mm cannons, which is tank-busting firepower and not correct. I'm guessing that this is what happened when the Tonys sank my sub with a single firing pass. It seems that this is probably a typo and should be changed to LinkName=20mmSingleAir. This is what I have done in my file and ask that someone check and possibly edit this info with regard to future distribution of these Tony files. My SH4 build consists of FOTR Ultimate 1.7, Kaigun Maru, Nippon Maru, and Fleet Interiors mods. No other active mods.

03-17-22, 07:23 PM	#3
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,749 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	It is always better to post in the mod thread, so we can more easily track reported issues, such as this. You could well be correct in that being a typo, but it might also be purposeful, from the original FOTRS days. The planes otherwise would be rather anemic. With FotRSU, we have done minimal "adjustment" to weapons, but all planes are set to "Elite", so that they "fly" better, else you would see about 1/2 of them crashing instead of the 25% that currently do... - we'll do some testing though with both the 40 and 20 mm guns, and see what works best for the mod. The 20mm should indeed also be capable of puncturing a sub's "armour" (or lack thereof) and compromise its hull integrity in quick order. As to sinking your boat, if your hull is compromised, you need to pay attention to the damage, and use that as a sort-of guide as to how deep you can go. 50% hull damage means you better not go much below PD, if you even make it that deep, due to the "water pressure" encountered... As you can well imagine what our usual advice is: "avoid airplanes whenever possible."... Thanks for the report. As always, these reports are extremely helpful to all. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

03-18-22, 01:07 PM	#6
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,749 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	I don't want to belabor the point too much, but there are all kinds of 20mm cannon vidz on the inet ToobYuze, and they are a very destructive weapon, which is one reason it was such a popular gun during ww2 for all nations. As an example: Shooting an engine block, in one side, out the other. Shooting a sewer lid, though you do have to wait for them to shoot the AP shell: Granted, they are both of cast steel, but still... In other words, I would not expose my sub purposefully to a 20mm round. The fact that you sank in 10 seconds most likely does not reflect on the ammo or gun, but rather on the sub itself. Perhaps you had already sustained damage earlier? Also note that the gun entries on the Ki-44 in the eqp file are "fake", and that all three of the planes have an onboard "MG" machine gun, and NOT a 40mm. There is nothing to mount the 40 or the 20mm to on the platform. Also note that we found evidence that the Ki-44 did indeed mount a 40mm later in the war, so if we change the guns around a bit, and add a cfg#A01 and 2 mount points for a 20mm, the Ki-44 will upgrade to a 40 in 1945. The 61 and 84, being faster, lighter, higher-climbing planes, did not get the 40mm due to the weight of the weapon. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

03-18-22, 06:20 AM	#4
Sammy-rai Seaman Join Date: Dec 2021 Location: Norway Posts: 39 Downloads: 28 Uploads: 0	OK, thanks for the replies. I'm not a sub expert but my opinion is that it's very unlikely that a strafing run by 2 20mm equipped fighters could result in a submarine sinking 10 seconds later. But it sounds plausible that if they got very lucky, they could inflict enough damage to force the sub back to the surface after some minutes due to leaks (which could eventually be repaired). And then the sub would have to duke it out with the aircraft. That would be interesting !! What struck me about the attack upon my sim sub was that the sub was fatally wrecked so quickly. I had expected to get a lot of time to repair some leaks but instead experienced massive system failures. Then game over. Anyway, I googled the subject and found this link: https://www.history.navy.mil/content...dfs/Appen3.pdf It is record of USN sinkings of U-boats and IJN subs. I skimmed and didn't find any examples of these boats being damaged by aircraft gunfire. I'm thinking that many of these U-boats did receive aircraft gunfire but it was not significant. In all the cases I found that fatal damage was inflicted by depth charges \ bombs \ mines \ torpedoes.