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Old 11-20-21, 06:03 PM   #1
Imarider
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Default sim.cfg - addition or multiplication?

There are params as fog factor, wave factor, light factor and so on. So, as i found, Ducimus, in hes topic about, talk that "Fog/light/wave factors. Think of them as enviormental dampeners, or how much the environment handicaps the AI. Smaller the number the less the handycap, the larger the number, the more the handycap" In hydrophone section he talk "waves factor is your standard enviormental handycap. 0.5 being quite the handycap, 0.95 being barely a handycap at all."
On the other side in sim.cfg TWoS file TheDarkWraith written for that " lower values than 1 make it harder for AI to detect you" in each section except visual.

So, i'm confused, or for visual settings and all other there are different methods of calculation, or... and here is the question: what method of calculating handicaps uses - addition or multiplication? Its important, because one way lowering values help AI and other help a player.

Last edited by Imarider; 11-20-21 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 11-20-21, 09:12 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Imarider View Post
There are params as fog factor, wave factor, light factor and so on. So, as i found, Ducimus, in hes topic about, talk that "Fog/light/wave factors. Think of them as enviormental dampeners, or how much the environment handicaps the AI. Smaller the number the less the handycap, the larger the number, the more the handycap" In hydrophone section he talk "waves factor is your standard enviormental handycap. 0.5 being quite the handycap, 0.95 being barely a handycap at all."
On the other side in sim.cfg TWoS file TheDarkWraith written for that " lower values than 1 make it harder for AI to detect you" in each section except visual.

So, i'm confused, or for visual settings and all other there are different methods of calculation, or... and here is the question: what method of calculating handicaps uses - addition or multiplication? Its important, because one way lowering values help AI and other help a player.
more than likely....the factors are multiplicative.
for enemy factors, the higher the decimal the more capable they will be, with 1 (representing 100%) being the highest value.
for your factors, the higher the decimal the more capable YOU will be.

so, applying basic math to game theory, the highest an enemy can sense you is 100% but in game theory, that is a percentage which is the integer 1. by applying a factor to that maximum value, you lower the enemy's capability. 1 x .5 = .5 so the enemy will have some capability at half of maximum.

conversely (or inversely), if the logic for a parm is your capability and not the enemy's, a one means that you can sense 100%. if that is multiplied by a lower factor (.5 or .25), your capability is reduced and therefore you will be handicapped, so to speak.

does that help?
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Old 11-20-21, 10:04 PM   #3
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more than likely....the factors are multiplicative.
for enemy factors, the higher the decimal the more capable they will be, with 1 (representing 100%) being the highest value.
for your factors, the higher the decimal the more capable YOU will be.

so, applying basic math to game theory, the highest an enemy can sense you is 100% but in game theory, that is a percentage which is the integer 1. by applying a factor to that maximum value, you lower the enemy's capability. 1 x .5 = .5 so the enemy will have some capability at half of maximum.

conversely (or inversely), if the logic for a parm is your capability and not the enemy's, a one means that you can sense 100%. if that is multiplied by a lower factor (.5 or .25), your capability is reduced and therefore you will be handicapped, so to speak.

does that help?
I'm feeling that for hydrophones, sonar and radar it's multiplicative, yes. But for visual factors it's not. There are many settings (from what i have read now) where those factors made > 1 and commented as handicap for AI (or player). Ducimus write that he didn't make light factor more than 2 because in sunrise and sunset game works bad with that (destroyers eyeless) and he wrote the configuration where all visual factors was more than 1. That is Trigger Maru settings as i have understood.
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Old 11-21-21, 12:52 AM   #4
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Old 11-21-21, 02:06 PM   #5
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Don't want to create separate thread. What do I need to change so my periscope would be harder to detect? Because sometimes they detect my scope from 2km. I want to tweak only periscope detection side of things. Visual sensors then surfaced and etc are perfect.
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Old 11-23-21, 08:20 AM   #6
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So no one know?
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Old 11-23-21, 10:21 AM   #7
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Don't want to create separate thread. What do I need to change so my periscope would be harder to detect? Because sometimes they detect my scope from 2km. I want to tweak only periscope detection side of things. Visual sensors then surfaced and etc are perfect.
how fast are you moving when you are detected at a range of 2 km?

secondly, prior to firstly, can you post your JSGME mod list, please?
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Old 11-23-21, 03:09 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Imarider View Post
So no one know?

As MM need to see your mod list to give a full answer but...

Honestly, visual sensors and how are detected has no sure fire answer, because there are so many variables to account for. and so man situations I learned this when creating my update mod for TMO. I spent many, many hours testing various settings in the sim.cfg so could make realistic night surface attacks, including getting inside convoys and attacking in certain conditions, mainly moonlight.

Main factors to being visually spotted are light, profile to enemy i.e. AOB, your speed, range, and fog. All of these factors work in conjunction, then others factors are enemy visual sensor type...escorts have different visual "eyes" than say a merchant, and that particular units skill level...a veteran escort will be more likely to spot you than a escort set to competent or novice, but then there are those various factors.

Yes, the lower the number in say light or fog, the lower the handicap. Example, with the darker nights mod added into TMO for more realistic nights, I had to lower light factor to 2.8, because at 3.0 they were blind with the dark nights. Any lower, they tend to get hawkeyed again so 2.8 is balance.


Same with hydrophone and sonar. With hydrophones, in TMO at least have found have to keep wave factor at 0.5 or they hear me coming a mile away in calm seas, even on silent running. However, I have lowered the thermal layer attenuation as well as the wave factor on active sonar. Result has been once I am contacted, waves don't completely nerf their sonar.


Far as the periscope. I'll need to know the mods and circumstances such as date, time, wave condition, your speed etc.
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Old 11-23-21, 05:03 PM   #9
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As MM need to see your mod list to give a full answer but...

Honestly, visual sensors and how are detected has no sure fire answer, because there are so many variables to account for. and so man situations I learned this when creating my update mod for TMO. I spent many, many hours testing various settings in the sim.cfg so could make realistic night surface attacks, including getting inside convoys and attacking in certain conditions, mainly moonlight.

Main factors to being visually spotted are light, profile to enemy i.e. AOB, your speed, range, and fog. All of these factors work in conjunction, then others factors are enemy visual sensor type...escorts have different visual "eyes" than say a merchant, and that particular units skill level...a veteran escort will be more likely to spot you than a escort set to competent or novice, but then there are those various factors.

Yes, the lower the number in say light or fog, the lower the handicap. Example, with the darker nights mod added into TMO for more realistic nights, I had to lower light factor to 2.8, because at 3.0 they were blind with the dark nights. Any lower, they tend to get hawkeyed again so 2.8 is balance.


Same with hydrophone and sonar. With hydrophones, in TMO at least have found have to keep wave factor at 0.5 or they hear me coming a mile away in calm seas, even on silent running. However, I have lowered the thermal layer attenuation as well as the wave factor on active sonar. Result has been once I am contacted, waves don't completely nerf their sonar.


Far as the periscope. I'll need to know the mods and circumstances such as date, time, wave condition, your speed etc.
1.From sim.cfg file:

Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=3.0 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 3 equals signal reduction to 33%

2.and from sh5 sim.cfg by TheDarkWraith for each section except visual:

lower values than 1 make it harder for AI to detect you

So, i don't know if sh5 sim.cfg work the same way as sh4, but about first thing, as i undestand, if "1" do nothing and number more then 1 reduces signal, then numbers < 1 increase signal by the way of multiplication. But Ducimus wrote in hes manual about hydrophone section that "waves factor is your standard enviormental handycap. 0.5 being quite the handycap, 0.95 being barely a handycap at all." So, for waves, following him, less number = more handycap (reduction, as i understand, yes?), and, if take into consideration what in sh5, same for height factor.

And if follow exactly another Ducimus phrase about visual settings " Fog/light/wave factors. Think of them as enviormental dampeners, or how much the enviorment handicaps the AI. Smaller the number the less the handycap, the larger the number, the more the handycap." there are addition for visual settings, becouse else number < 1 gave more handycap, not less, or numbers > 1 gave more...

So, initially, i thought about addition or multiplication, and looked at the most settings for sh4, i thought that here addition for visual and multiplication for others, what looks strange... But now i don't know. I'm trying to open SHSim.act becouse read that there are some information about formulas, but сonsidering my poor knowledge about programming, don't think it will help.

About mod list, now i installed KSD-II with heavily modified OMEGU environment and there are:

Waves amplitude=0.7
Waves attenuation=0.06

what different from OM as i see... But later may be i will play FotRSU, dunno what i will change, but environment for sure.
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Old 11-23-21, 11:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imarider View Post
1.From sim.cfg file:

Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=3.0 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 3 equals signal reduction to 33%

2.and from sh5 sim.cfg by TheDarkWraith for each section except visual:

lower values than 1 make it harder for AI to detect you

So, i don't know if sh5 sim.cfg work the same way as sh4, but about first thing, as i undestand, if "1" do nothing and number more then 1 reduces signal, then numbers < 1 increase signal by the way of multiplication. But Ducimus wrote in hes manual about hydrophone section that "waves factor is your standard enviormental handycap. 0.5 being quite the handycap, 0.95 being barely a handycap at all." So, for waves, following him, less number = more handycap (reduction, as i understand, yes?), and, if take into consideration what in sh5, same for height factor.

And if follow exactly another Ducimus phrase about visual settings " Fog/light/wave factors. Think of them as enviormental dampeners, or how much the enviorment handicaps the AI. Smaller the number the less the handycap, the larger the number, the more the handycap." there are addition for visual settings, becouse else number < 1 gave more handycap, not less, or numbers > 1 gave more...

So, initially, i thought about addition or multiplication, and looked at the most settings for sh4, i thought that here addition for visual and multiplication for others, what looks strange... But now i don't know. I'm trying to open SHSim.act becouse read that there are some information about formulas, but сonsidering my poor knowledge about programming, don't think it will help.

About mod list, now i installed KSD-II with heavily modified OMEGU environment and there are:

Waves amplitude=0.7
Waves attenuation=0.06

what different from OM as i see... But later may be i will play FotRSU, dunno what i will change, but environment for sure.

Ahh okay, you are in the ATO. That is a whole different ball game. Aside from .cfg settings, the individual sensor type equipped and the range/sensitivity settings on those sensors, if set to 0.0 in the file, they use settings in the sim.cfg but other numbers in file, they take from their own .sim files. The settings for Allied units, esp in the ATO are going to be much different than IJN in order to provide the different experience of Allied escorts and technology vs Japanese.

This would explain your scope being spotted often, as while it has been a while, I recall my scope being spotted often even with great exposure discipline.
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Old 11-23-21, 11:34 PM   #11
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This would explain your scope being spotted often, as while it has been a while, I recall my scope being spotted often even with great exposure discipline.
i would have to agree with this comment.
currently, i am playing DW and even after penetrating an Allied escort screen and closing on my target(s) to within torpedo range, my scope is detected one second after it is raised. one second at 2 kt speed.
THAT is a tough opponent.
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Old 11-23-21, 11:58 PM   #12
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i would have to agree with this comment.
currently, i am playing DW and even after penetrating an Allied escort screen and closing on my target(s) to within torpedo range, my scope is detected one second after it is raised. one second at 2 kt speed.
THAT is a tough opponent.
Indeed.

I would have to open up the visual sensors files for escorts etc but suspect the minimum height may be set too low, perhaps sensitivity factor of visual sensors are set too sensitive or sim.cfg needs some tweaking.

In TMO and my update, they will spot your scope in day time but if keep exposures at 10 secs or less and careful when close to enemy vessels, can usually avoid it. Night time, rarely spot scope unless close in which is fine. Odds of lookout spotting a periscope at night unless very close or moving at high speed and leaving a "feather" are very low.
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Old 11-24-21, 12:14 AM   #13
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But what about all those factors in sim.cfg? If they affect detection. How to calculate, for example, fog factor if it < 1, if we take range from 0 to 1, how it will be: less number = better detection or vice versa? And is it for sure that numbers more than 1 damp detection? That's all my questions.

Yes, and, anyway, may i ask you to know your settings?

"if we take range from 0 to 1, how it will be: less number = better detection or vice versa?" - i mean here, if numbers < 1 will be increase detection capabilities of escort? Sorry, i was too tired yesterday.

Last edited by Imarider; 11-24-21 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 11-24-21, 12:41 AM   #14
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But what about all those factors in sim.cfg? If they affect detection. How to calculate, for example, fog factor if it < 1, if we take range from 0 to 1, how it will be: less number = better detection or vice versa? And is it for sure that numbers more than 1 damp detection? That's all my questions.

Yes, and, anyway, may i ask you to know your settings?

My current sim.cfg settings


;AI surface ships sensors cfg file

[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.2 ;[0,1]
Waves attenuation=0.75 ;>=0

[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=20 ;3 ;[deg]
Max fire range=35000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=8 ;[s]

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=15 ;[deg]
Max fire range=5486 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

[AI detection]
Lost contact time=2160 ;[min]

[Visual]
Detection time=0.5 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.1 ;(0..1) min detection threshold double detection time.
Fog factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Light factor=2.8 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=30 ;50 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=14 ;[kt]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=1.0

[Radar]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=5.0 ;[m2]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=1.0

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.15 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=0.35 ;[>=0]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=1.5 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 3 equals signal reduction to 33%

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.05 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.0 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=30 ;[s]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=3.0 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 5 equals signal reduction to 20%



Far as calculating, honestly I gave up on that long ago lol as can calculate and things make sense, but then do not translate that way into the sim when running a patrol. So operating on some basic info posted by ducimus, I started experimenting with different settings and have gained a feel for how things will be typically. Again, there are a lot of variables here. With sim.cfg modified, you still have no way of knowing a individual units skill level or sensor package outside of well its early war so likely not the top sound gear, but skill level is one of great unknowns. Now, such as in TMO, it escorts are never set below veteran, because they are basically incompetent morons if they are. A few are set to elite.

I would say yes, higher the number, the more the handicap. Example, light factor of 2.8, if I go lower, light does not handicap the the enemy visual sensors enough, but if go to 2.9, they are nearly blind, 3.0, they are blind. Now, this is in TMO where have darker nights than any of the other mods have encountered and this is for escort sensors and they are at veteran and some elite. So in mods with "regular" nights, settings may need to be higher, it can be a tough balance. Again, the settings of the individual sensors files (AI_Visual_Sensors.sim or something named along those lines comes into play as well, perhaps even outside of the cfg.sim. Some visual sensors maybe have their own sensitivity settings .

With these settings, I can on surface , under no or little moonlight, work inside a convoy, pass as close as 1900 yards from a escort (set to veteran skill level) to get inside a convoy , attack, and get out.Most night surface torpedo attacks from from 2000-2500 yards at firing. Come under fire, but can turn and escape and can't recall last time I was hit. Get some close ones, but odds of being hit by gunfire at night at any reasonable distance, especially from a panicked gun crew are low. Can happen, but very rare. Now usually spotted, fired upon, pursued by with the dark night and those visuals, the night time is a shield as it was for actuals subs on surface. Obviously in daylight, they are much more likely to spot me. During end around, I stay at 10 NM from escorts at minimum.


You scope being spotted is likely a result of visual sensors being a little too sensitive, perhaps wave factor is too low and if being spotted at night, light factor too low. Difficult to say outside of modifying and experimenting with settings. I recall stock and sadly carried over to some mods how vessels without radar would spot player submarine approaching at low speed from miles away on surface at night lmao, it was absurd
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Old 11-24-21, 06:47 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980 View Post
My current sim.cfg settings


;AI surface ships sensors cfg file

[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.2 ;[0,1]
Waves attenuation=0.75 ;>=0

[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=20 ;3 ;[deg]
Max fire range=35000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=8 ;[s]

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=15 ;[deg]
Max fire range=5486 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

[AI detection]
Lost contact time=2160 ;[min]

[Visual]
Detection time=0.5 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.1 ;(0..1) min detection threshold double detection time.
Fog factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Light factor=2.8 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=30 ;50 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=14 ;[kt]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=1.0

[Radar]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=5.0 ;[m2]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=1.0

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.15 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=0.35 ;[>=0]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=1.5 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 3 equals signal reduction to 33%

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.05 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.0 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=30 ;[s]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=3.0 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 5 equals signal reduction to 20%



Far as calculating, honestly I gave up on that long ago lol as can calculate and things make sense, but then do not translate that way into the sim when running a patrol. So operating on some basic info posted by ducimus, I started experimenting with different settings and have gained a feel for how things will be typically. Again, there are a lot of variables here. With sim.cfg modified, you still have no way of knowing a individual units skill level or sensor package outside of well its early war so likely not the top sound gear, but skill level is one of great unknowns. Now, such as in TMO, it escorts are never set below veteran, because they are basically incompetent morons if they are. A few are set to elite.

I would say yes, higher the number, the more the handicap. Example, light factor of 2.8, if I go lower, light does not handicap the the enemy visual sensors enough, but if go to 2.9, they are nearly blind, 3.0, they are blind. Now, this is in TMO where have darker nights than any of the other mods have encountered and this is for escort sensors and they are at veteran and some elite. So in mods with "regular" nights, settings may need to be higher, it can be a tough balance. Again, the settings of the individual sensors files (AI_Visual_Sensors.sim or something named along those lines comes into play as well, perhaps even outside of the cfg.sim. Some visual sensors maybe have their own sensitivity settings .

With these settings, I can on surface , under no or little moonlight, work inside a convoy, pass as close as 1900 yards from a escort (set to veteran skill level) to get inside a convoy , attack, and get out.Most night surface torpedo attacks from from 2000-2500 yards at firing. Come under fire, but can turn and escape and can't recall last time I was hit. Get some close ones, but odds of being hit by gunfire at night at any reasonable distance, especially from a panicked gun crew are low. Can happen, but very rare. Now usually spotted, fired upon, pursued by with the dark night and those visuals, the night time is a shield as it was for actuals subs on surface. Obviously in daylight, they are much more likely to spot me. During end around, I stay at 10 NM from escorts at minimum.


You scope being spotted is likely a result of visual sensors being a little too sensitive, perhaps wave factor is too low and if being spotted at night, light factor too low. Difficult to say outside of modifying and experimenting with settings. I recall stock and sadly carried over to some mods how vessels without radar would spot player submarine approaching at low speed from miles away on surface at night lmao, it was absurd
Thank you, it will help. But about "Max fire range=35000", there what i read: " On a clear, calm day with good light in real life, you can see in excess of 32km" - https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...d.php?t=103968 . And "Fog factor=0.5" - won't it double detection capabilities of escort meaning what i just corrected in my previous post?

There are two useful threads what i found on forum too, may be you read, but:
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...d.php?t=210786
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=86629

Last edited by Imarider; 11-24-21 at 07:33 AM.
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