Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Oberon]

If America does go isolationist, then Europe needs to either coalesce into a superstate, or side with Russia.

However what Europe probably will do is go to war with each other.

Because that's what we do...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Leave Germany alone? Leave America out of this too. We really need to go back to being isolationist. If a 2016 presidential candidate says he will pull our troops out of the Middle East Europe and Asia, that's my man, be he democrat, Republican or libertarian. it's time for America to stop trying to fix the worlds problems

Though I can understand the sentiment behind this, it is not really realistic, but surreal. A world from which you run away, nevertheless can and will reach you, even overtake you - globalised economy and all that, the world good-willingly believing the illusion of papermoney as a precondition of your dollar so that you still can be able to buy at least something with it for some time. You think your government will kleave the world alone? Militarikly, maybe. Financially, US spasms will become bigger and interventions, at least attempts to intervene, more frequent, and more intense. Delayed filing of insolvency - it brings out some of the worst in politics, and nations.

All that is part of the price for allowing to overstretch in the first - what got pumped up artifically , must deflate necessarily sooner or later. And that will be painful. Thats why I do not like nor believe in this utopia of "unlimited growth". A balance representing a dynamic stability is much more to be preferred, at best a slow, evolutionary slow increase (although that already is problematic if not being countered by phases of decline) - not an explosive expansion to always newer, wider boundaries. General rule of physics: in a system of limited proportions, infinite expansion is impossible.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Isn't this about the point that the US said it will step in with its gas supplies?
Tick tock...

When someone posted here almost two years ago, that the US will be Nr. 1 hydrocarbon exporter due to fracking technology soon, i said "seeing is believing".

Now that the petrol and gas prices have gone down to almost nothing in the US, i take it it all has been very successful.
Harrumph.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

If America does go isolationist, then Europe needs to either coalesce into a superstate, or side with Russia.

However what Europe probably will do is go to war with each other.

Because that's what we do...

So far since ten years or so we see growing tensions over the attempt to forcefully unite what does not match, must not match, and will never match.

Why is it that always a more of that what has caused the crisis, is demanded as the assumed solution? Bad habit? It is no coincidence that the antipathy against the EU and the hate against the Euro are constantly rising. Both do not bring people together - they split them, more and more. And if the price for enforcing peace - sort of a prison's peace - is to poassively accepot Europe being cokjpleted to turn into a new Soviet union model, I prfeer the rebellion, the revolt, the fight. Even if that means grim stories to be told about that era, once the conflict is over.

Freedom is more precious and important, and without it anything else is nothing.

But hey, the holy Apple mass yesterday celebrated the Apple Watch like a divine revelation, and all the world wnet Oh! and Ah! and sent prayers to the Golden Apple. As long as people fall for such infantile hypes, and think their life revolves around such Kinderkram, all hope is lost anyway. If such gimmicks are the idols the crowds dance around, I wonder whether we really deserve it any better than being fed infantile Kinderkram and slogans by our leaders, and not being taken serious by our enemies and rivals.

Or has Apple anounced a cure for cancer, or did they found an antidot to Alzheimer? Consider for a moment what profanity it is that dominated today's headlines and had all TV channels assisting in spreading the hype, and you may see what I mean and why it angers me so.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

When someone posted here almost two years ago, that the US will be Nr. 1 hydrocarbon exporter due to fracking technology soon, i said "seeing is believing".

Now that the petrol and gas prices have gone down to almost nothing in the US, i take it it all has been very successful.
Harrumph.

And for some time I fell for that story, too, I have to admit. Indeed I could have been that poster, or one of them. But my doubts on that from the time before that hype, have returned since quite a while now, starting when I saw several key investors and business heavyweights in the oil business refusing to invest the needed capital into boosting it. The volume of gas won by fracking, in many projects already is declining again: last time I read about that, was sometime in Spring this year.

There will be a spike in fracking and US oil production from that, possibly making the US the biggest oil producer indeed - but it will not last long, but burn out soon. After that, the great sobering...

It reminds me a bit of the illusions that get desparately maintained regarding the dollar and the ability to just endlessly print money and increase debts forever. Admitting that it is an illusion, would mean the beginning of the end, so the desperate stubborness to cling to it is even understandable. But the crash at the end will only become worse.

[Catfish]

Thoughts about Ukraine, Putin and the western media.

Only in german - or is there a translation, or a version with text under it ?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...09742&page=100

Yes i know he is controversial and one-sided, but he does have some good points. The NATO is not defensive anymore, if it ever was.
American politicians have said (loudly), that " ... asian resources are too valuable, to leave them to the russians". Can it be any more obvious?

Regarding the spiritual general mobilisation done by the media, it is so easy to see through, that it is almost ridiculous.

Especially when i look at the german "ZDF", with an anchorman who is a member of the US-German "Transatlantikbruecke".
I would not believe one word he says, not even "Good evening"

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

So far since ten years or so we see growing tensions over the attempt to forcefully unite what does not match, must not match, and will never match.

Why is it that always a more of that what has caused the crisis, is demanded as the assumed solution? Bad habit? It is no coincidence that the antipathy against the EU and the hate against the Euro are constantly rising. Both do not bring people together - they split them, more and more. And if the price for enforcing peace - sort of a prison's peace - is to poassively accepot Europe being cokjpleted to turn into a new Soviet union model, I prfeer the rebellion, the revolt, the fight. Even if that means grim stories to be told about that era, once the conflict is over.

Freedom is more precious and important, and without it anything else is nothing.

Then we must accept the fact that Europe no longer means anything. We have been overtaken, obsoleted, made redundent by the big three, America, Russia and China. If America collapses inward then whither now Europe? There is no single European nation which can challenge Russia either militarily or financially, if there's something the past two centuries have taught Europe it should be this. Only as a single unified force can Europe hope to keep its independence, but sadly I think that petty nationalistic squabbles are going to ruin any chance of this.
Europe can work together, but only if it drags its collective arses out of the last century and into this one, but I might as well wish for the moon while I'm at it. It's shameful how easily people fall for the same cheap nationalistic rubbish that has been spewed out in justification for hatred and wars over the last two centuries.

[Catfish]

^ And why should we "challenge Russia" ?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ And why should we "challenge Russia" ?

It's not so much us challenging Russia, it's if Russia decides to challenge us. It's about retaining European independence in a Russian dominated market.
Unless of course the preferred option is to move towards intergrating with Russia, but I don't know how well that would work out this soon after the end of the Cold War. Besides I think a unified Eurasian Union would be too big an entity to manage, especially considering how much we're struggling with just a European Union.

[ikalugin]

The sad fact is that while 30 years ago USSR (and by extension Russia in the form of the RSFSR) was a super power, Russia is no longer a super power and probably would never quite recover.

Thus the two super power players are the US and the rising China. So if europeans had the ambition to grow out of their great power status into the collective super power status they had to either integrate with each other (didn't happen due to internal conflicts) or have a strong partner that would kick down doors for the EU.

Now it just so happened that this partner is US (no surprise there), but does the US trully have best interests of the EU in mind?

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

or have a strong partner that would kick down doors for the EU.

Therein lies the problem for the US. Bashing in doors is one thing. Everyone is always gung-ho at that point. It's managing what goes on that room or house for years after that has become tedious and wearisome and no one wants a part of anymore. Usually there's only an endless game of whack-a-mole going on in the front parlor.

[Skybird]

Oberon, if you mean that as a serious reply to me, then you have not understood a single argument that either me or liberalism ever made on these issues - and you do not realise to what degree the EU already is copying the mechanisms of political power in the former Sovjet system in its own system, including the corruption.

You want the EUDSSR then. I want a Europe of liberty and diversity, without the neofeudal caste enslavjng us again.

That the EU and the Euro have not decreased but increased tensions between the people, should be a warning.

I just saw on TV the names announced for the key posts jn the new central committee of the EU. Frightening, and hair-raising names. More debts are already guaranteed.

On russia, we had our chances for closer cooperation and coexisting. Washjngton, NATO and the EU messed it up, carelessly and quite arrogantly.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Oberon

It's not so much us challenging Russia, it's if Russia decides to challenge us. It's about retaining European independence in a Russian dominated market.
Unless of course the preferred option is to move towards intergrating with Russia, but I don't know how well that would work out this soon after the end of the Cold War. Besides I think a unified Eurasian Union would be too big an entity to manage, especially considering how much we're struggling with just a European Union.

European independence ? Are you kidding ? In this age of worthless paper money, any nation riding the capitalist horse is depending on all the others. E.g. England has not so much industry anymore, rather than depending on its financial market in London. This is not about Aston-Martin selling a hundred cars a year, anymore.
Russia is a capitalistic country, too. Germany has some 500 big companies as partners of russian companies, as it has with the USA, China, and among others, England.

I do not see Russia dominating anytime soon. They have had 7 decades of starving, and are urging to trade, but they won't let them.
What is true is that the future of trade lies in the East, and some do not like this.


"Russia challenging 'us' " ?

Hmm. Let's think, for a short moment ?
The NATO had tightened its ring of members around Russia since 1989.
I can understand Poland, but did it really ever think that Russsia would invade now, or in the next 100 years ? Really ??
Then the CIA wanted Kiev to become a member of the NATO, like they wanted Georgia (the original) to become one. The CIA's chief was in Kiev, and a ukrainian jet shoots down a civilian plane, trying to blame it on Russia. WHerever the GCHQ and the MIxx were, all that time.
And now we "stand together" and have sanctions, against Russia. Sanctions are a kind of war, if w/o official declaration.
All over this time, western media spread hate and fear about the evil russians, and practising spiritual general mobilisation.
It is about resources, and hegemony.

How many Guantanamos has Russia, right now ? How much civilians did Russia kill lately, with drones ?

I can clearly see how Russia challenges and threatens the West

Putin thinks nationally, of course. But if he backed away from the Ukraine, after this affront over decades, no one in the West and anywhere else would take him seriously.

[ikalugin]

By "bashing doors" I meant the muscle in the EU, ie a party that could execute relevant aggressive foreign policy when need be. The issue here is that the central EU members appear to be reluctant defense spending wise and would prefer not to send their servicemen I to the places of danger.

Currently this role (within the EU) could be taken by the Eastern Europeans, but they are too close to the US and are too pre occupied with counter Russia policy to be used else where.

[Skybird]

The new commission's names are a declaration of war against austerity, budget discipline, economic reasonability and especially Germany. Exactly what I expected of that #%?%$!" named Juncker. To hell with this gangster, author of so unforgettable confession like: "Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?", and: "We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back." You have to give it to the man: he has completely internalised what the EU is about.

The whole gang stinks. Jun cker always wanted to milk Germany as much as could be arranged. With that crew, he will make rich prey, and Germany will find it difficult to set up resistance anymore. Add to that that with Latvia joining the Euro next year the rfotaiton principle in the controlling board will be activ ated and every five months Germany will have no voting in the ECB for one month, it is not difficult to forsee what will happen next. Just project Draghis recent preparatory steps a bit into the future, and you can see it easily.

Poor Germany, one could say. But Germans do no revolt against their masters, and instead submissively obey and let it happen, so they do deserve their fate for sure. So: no compassion or sympathy from me. Germans will get what they have asked for. Bon Appetit.