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Old 01-25-2022, 04:27 PM   #1
DeutscheQuality
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Icon1 Tips, please?

Just get my poor Salmon class sunk by a japanese destroyer on Makassar Strait. Tried to get near him to launch some torps but i get too near of him (9km) and he detected me. After that, get my sub the deepest i could (150 meters) at 1 knot. And the next is already known: me and my crew were killed after sinking 61.093 tons. Probably the biggest mistake here was the approach, but what more you guys could reccomend? I read in the manual that in the early war, the sonar cone (or something like this) cant get you at 200 meters, but i dont know if is possible to get a Salmon at this depth.
What can i do to avoid and escape escorts with a better efficiency?
Sorry for using metric units, i dont know anything about imperial. Also, i am using TMO 2.5
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Old 01-25-2022, 08:20 PM   #2
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2 simple things..1. Do not shoot at the destroyers..2. get the "crush depth mod" and install it thru jsgme...
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Old 01-25-2022, 08:27 PM   #3
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Just get my poor Salmon class sunk by a japanese destroyer on Makassar Strait. Tried to get near him to launch some torps but i get too near of him (9km) and he detected me. After that, get my sub the deepest i could (150 meters) at 1 knot. And the next is already known: me and my crew were killed after sinking 61.093 tons. Probably the biggest mistake here was the approach, but what more you guys could reccomend? I read in the manual that in the early war, the sonar cone (or something like this) cant get you at 200 meters, but i dont know if is possible to get a Salmon at this depth.
What can i do to avoid and escape escorts with a better efficiency?
Sorry for using metric units, i dont know anything about imperial. Also, i am using TMO 2.5
ahoy, DQ.
you have explained your own demise: attacking in shallow waters.
unlike real life where anxieties and human limitations (lack of confidence, low skills, lack of imagination, etc) in your enemy are ever present, you are playing against artificial intelligence and consequently, you will be pursued according to programmed limits, even it is a self-destructive pursuit by your surface enemy.
my best advice is: do not attack unless you have an exit to safety. this is NOT real life.
pay attention to your thermocline, your speed, your course.
when you are attacked (or about to be attacked) change course, speed and depth. continually. until you are no longer being active hunted.
keep at it. you will get better at it.
Good Luck, Herr Kaleun!


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Old 01-25-2022, 09:23 PM   #4
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2 simple things..1. Do not shoot at the destroyers..2. get the "crush depth mod" and install it thru jsgme...
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ahoy, DQ.
you have explained your own demise: attacking in shallow waters.
unlike real life where anxieties and human limitations (lack of confidence, low skills, lack of imagination, etc) in your enemy are ever present, you are playing against artificial intelligence and consequently, you will be pursued according to programmed limits, even it is a self-destructive pursuit by your surface enemy.
my best advice is: do not attack unless you have an exit to safety. this is NOT real life.
pay attention to your thermocline, your speed, your course.
when you are attacked (or about to be attacked) change course, speed and depth. continually. until you are no longer being active hunted.
keep at it. you will get better at it.
Good Luck, Herr Kaleun!


Thanks for the replies, it will help a lot
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Old 01-25-2022, 09:44 PM   #5
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Just get my poor Salmon class sunk by a japanese destroyer on Makassar Strait. Tried to get near him to launch some torps but i get too near of him (9km) and he detected me. After that, get my sub the deepest i could (150 meters) at 1 knot. And the next is already known: me and my crew were killed after sinking 61.093 tons. Probably the biggest mistake here was the approach, but what more you guys could reccomend? I read in the manual that in the early war, the sonar cone (or something like this) cant get you at 200 meters, but i dont know if is possible to get a Salmon at this depth.
What can i do to avoid and escape escorts with a better efficiency?
Sorry for using metric units, i dont know anything about imperial. Also, i am using TMO 2.5
Are you running TMO 2.5 Update BH or regular TMO 2.5?

You were at 9km which is little less than 5 nautical miles and at 150 meters which is just under 500 ft (very deep for a Salmon class) and at 1 knot(too slow, there is not much sound difference between 1 kt and 2 kts, long as RPM is under 100 and on sillent runnings. At 1 kt, you are practically immobile.

Were you on the surface prior or did make contact when submerged? I ask this, as it is possible you were detected prior, when submerging.

Did you have silent running activated? That is key. Unfortunately on approach in the sim, need silent running active in most cases.

What was the state of the seas? I assume calm.


Unusual to be detected at that range unless making a lot of noise, so another possibility that comes to mind is a unseen aircraft spotted your sub as it passed overhead and alerted the warships. TMO aircraft can see subs under water in appropriate conditions and in late 1944, they get MAD, so can detect submerged submarines at deeps at 300 feet or deeper even.

Thing about approaches and evading sonar is there is more to it that getting under the cone. Your profile to the beam matters so with your bow pointing vs your broadsides. Sea state, enemy speed, if you are below a thermal layer etc matters. You were not picked up by active sonar at 9 km as does not have that type of range, you were heard by hydrophones or spotted as mentioned.

AI has two statuses...normal and alert. They are always using active sonar in normal mode...but you only heard the ping if the beam is near your sub or focused. I hate this aspect of SH 4 but its a hardcoded thing and the fix someone put out, is outdated and does not work properly with modern modded versions of sim. If they don't pick you up on active or passive, oe visual, or not told by another ship where your location is, they will slow down and listen for your sub.

Approach quietly and time your attack so you can keep 1500 yards minimum from escorts, so they don't detect you. Keep your profile to the escort minimal. Key is to time approach to let the lead escort go by and if there is a flank escort, time it so can be at firing point to attack and let torpedoes hit before flank escort detects you.
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Old 01-25-2022, 10:33 PM   #6
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Are you running TMO 2.5 Update BH or regular TMO 2.5?

You were at 9km which is little less than 5 nautical miles and at 150 meters which is just under 500 ft (very deep for a Salmon class) and at 1 knot(too slow, there is not much sound difference between 1 kt and 2 kts, long as RPM is under 100 and on sillent runnings. At 1 kt, you are practically immobile.

Were you on the surface prior or did make contact when submerged? I ask this, as it is possible you were detected prior, when submerging.

Did you have silent running activated? That is key. Unfortunately on approach in the sim, need silent running active in most cases.

What was the state of the seas? I assume calm.


Unusual to be detected at that range unless making a lot of noise, so another possibility that comes to mind is a unseen aircraft spotted your sub as it passed overhead and alerted the warships. TMO aircraft can see subs under water in appropriate conditions and in late 1944, they get MAD, so can detect submerged submarines at deeps at 300 feet or deeper even.

Thing about approaches and evading sonar is there is more to it that getting under the cone. Your profile to the beam matters so with your bow pointing vs your broadsides. Sea state, enemy speed, if you are below a thermal layer etc matters. You were not picked up by active sonar at 9 km as does not have that type of range, you were heard by hydrophones or spotted as mentioned.

AI has two statuses...normal and alert. They are always using active sonar in normal mode...but you only heard the ping if the beam is near your sub or focused. I hate this aspect of SH 4 but its a hardcoded thing and the fix someone put out, is outdated and does not work properly with modern modded versions of sim. If they don't pick you up on active or passive, oe visual, or not told by another ship where your location is, they will slow down and listen for your sub.

Approach quietly and time your attack so you can keep 1500 yards minimum from escorts, so they don't detect you. Keep your profile to the escort minimal. Key is to time approach to let the lead escort go by and if there is a flank escort, time it so can be at firing point to attack and let torpedoes hit before flank escort detects you.
About when the destroyer make contact and the sea state, it was an calm sea, basically no wind. And he detected me on the surface. Trying to resume the approach: I detected him by the radar, full ahead, plot his course (i use the map contact on) and with caution, choose the place to attack him at PD at a distance of 1.800 meters. I don't know really how to explain this, but when he detected me on the surface (at the 9 kilometers) i was something like 1 minute to dive to periscope depth.

Most of my attacks are like this: Found a target, plot his course, full ahead and by the radar, continue to tracking him untill i am a good distance ahead of him, so i can simply get near his presumed course and wait the moment i can finally see him through the periscope and get all the data for the torpedos, and launch them. Don't know if is a good method, but that's what i do (for now), and im ready to improve if this is an bad method
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Old 01-25-2022, 10:39 PM   #7
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About when the destroyer make contact and the sea state, it was an calm sea, basically no wind. And he detected me on the surface. Trying to resume the approach: I detected him by the radar, full ahead, plot his course (i use the map contact on) and with caution, choose the place to attack him at PD at a distance of 1.800 meters. I don't know really how to explain this, but when he detected me on the surface (at the 9 kilometers) i was something like 1 minute to dive to periscope depth.

Most of my attacks are like this: Found a target, plot his course, full ahead and by the radar, continue to tracking him untill i am a good distance ahead of him, so i can simply get near his presumed course and wait the moment i can finally see him through the periscope and get all the data for the torpedos, and launch them. Don't know if is a good method, but that's what i do (for now), and im ready to improve if this is an bad method
Also, forgot to say: I am using TMO 2.5 with the Update BH

Last edited by DeutscheQuality; 01-25-2022 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 01-26-2022, 01:10 AM   #8
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Also, forgot to say: I am using TMO 2.5 with the Update BH
If.. I may interject here... concerning your... demise incident, what time frame were you at... '42... '43...???

If, it was '42 or '3, iirc... the IJN, did have a brief period in success of sinking a few of the U.S. fleet boats... not nearly enough, to stave off... the eventual destruction of their merchant fleet, following the U.S. finally getting the snafu with the Mk 14 torps, straightened out & really giving it to their shipping & warships, when the subs ran across them.

Add to that, the introduction of better ship & aircraft detection gear on the fleet boats... well, for the IJN it was all over for them, by that time... but the .

By... mid 44, onward... the U.S., really got to rolling &...

at that point, the IJN, was well on their way, to losing the war.



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Old 01-26-2022, 01:50 AM   #9
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If.. I may interject here... concerning your... demise incident, what time frame were you at... '42... '43...???

If, it was '42 or '3, iirc... the IJN, did have a brief period in success of sinking a few of the U.S. fleet boats... not nearly enough, to stave off... the eventual destruction of their merchant fleet, following the U.S. finally getting the snafu with the Mk 14 torps, straightened out & really giving it to their shipping & warships, when the subs ran across them.

Add to that, the introduction of better ship & aircraft detection gear on the fleet boats... well, for the IJN it was all over for them, by that time... but the .

By... mid 44, onward... the U.S., really got to rolling &...

at that point, the IJN, was well on their way, to losing the war.



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My memory inst that good, but i know i have started this campaign on mid 1942. I think it was the begining of 1943 when the... incident happened. At least the crew had time to celebrate Christmas
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Old 01-26-2022, 03:21 AM   #10
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My memory inst that good, but i know i have started this campaign on mid 1942. I think it was the begining of 1943 when the... incident happened. At least the crew had time to celebrate Christmas
best tactic.. or strategy, is... make contact... roll on it, with plotting out their general heading, adding in an adjust for 10... maybe 15 degrees either side of what you project as their "base course"... then flank out ahead, if your able to or are already running on the surface.

Factor in, several hours of leeway, or til you just start to not get contact reports, then begin angling in to interdict their course on a 90 degree tangent.

Example:

Enemy base course of heading... say... 245... flank out til contact starts to stop being reported... then angle in til your on a course heading of... mhmm... 335. Once you've obtained that 90 degree cross mark... figure out where on their heading for a radii of 1500 feet... or 457.2 meters... just before you hit that range from their direction f travel line... go to all stop.

Give it... about hmm... 10 to 15 minutes, after you start picking up reports of ships spotted... then submerge.

go ahead 1/3 speed.. & begin course heading back tracking their base course... til your on heading of 050 or 055 degrees.

This should give you a low silhouette to their possible sound a.i.

before closing in, order up silent running...

After the lead & flanking escort, closest to you on the south end of the convoy... passes... can then begin a turn back in to a heading of 335 degrees.

It helps, before running out ahead at flank, to take some basic notes on the convoy composition & notate, what ships comprise it... their general layout... this helps, while you're awaiting those ships sighted reports, to go ahead & set up your torps, ahead of time, so that all that remains, is... opening the tubes, so when you are ready to begin your attack... well.. that's done. All that's left, is quick finding the targets, locking in or manually computing the time you need to pop off the fish, their way.

Myself... I prefer using My crew... so I use auto set up on My career. With the exception being that I still have to decide... fast/slow, mag or impact... I generally go for adding in a .5 to 1 degree change on the torp, to lead it a bit... just in case the torp is spotted & the ship goes to speed up... well... that .5 to 1 degree adds in for that happening. Hopefully... & if not, then the torp hits a bit more.. forward but still... is going to sting the target, good. That is if it doesn't dud out or fail to go off. (This depends on where in the course of the war.. I run across them as I do play with historic duds factored in.)

I try for not keeping the scope up any longer than necessary... fire off the fish, & then, begin a turn in a 180 heading... to begin getting My sub & crew... outta dodge... to look to get clear, on a heading on their base course, a bit... so can reattack, while also bearing in mind that 1 or more of the targets I am going for, may get damaged so that they're... sitting ducks.

So, any follow up I do, is going to factor in how the attack went... making sure that I am not where I was when I launched My attack... & keeping in mind the convoys intended course of travel. With all of that, can then process all that & decide how to proceed as the situation plays out.

Hope with what I outlined here... helps. This is of course... just the way I approach things...

This here... is not taking into account water depth, but suffice it to say... I try to avoid shallow waters... unless there is stormy weather.. as that was when their sonar was hard pressed to work... as sound would get... scrambled... from what I understand it... & even in deep water territory, prefer the waves to have some chop to them... even better if it's a bit choppy & raining... with mid to low visability. Which, all of that... also factors in, when plotting out an attack, as well.

Hope it helps.



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Old 01-26-2022, 08:06 AM   #11
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About when the destroyer make contact and the sea state, it was an calm sea, basically no wind. And he detected me on the surface. Trying to resume the approach: I detected him by the radar, full ahead, plot his course (i use the map contact on) and with caution, choose the place to attack him at PD at a distance of 1.800 meters. I don't know really how to explain this, but when he detected me on the surface (at the 9 kilometers) i was something like 1 minute to dive to periscope depth.

Most of my attacks are like this: Found a target, plot his course, full ahead and by the radar, continue to tracking him untill i am a good distance ahead of him, so i can simply get near his presumed course and wait the moment i can finally see him through the periscope and get all the data for the torpedos, and launch them. Don't know if is a good method, but that's what i do (for now), and im ready to improve if this is an bad method

Okay, that explains a lot. You were spotted on the surface prior to diving, which means the AI was in "alert" mode, knew there was definitely a submarine , and knew where to look. Also, your boat is noisy when it is diving, so if nearby it makes you easy to detect. AI is smart enough (well if set to vet or elite, and all TMO escorts are set to vet or elite btw. Mostly veteran. Set below veteran, they are outright incompetent most of the time.) to know a submarine can only travel so far. In summary, they had a visual fix on you when you submerged, heard your boat submerge, in calm seas, was fairly easy to find your boat.


In future, should keep 8-10 nautical miles or 14-18 KM (in daylight) from enemy vessels, dive ahead and approach. Sometimes can get away with less distance, depending on light fog etc but at 9 km, you were too close and were thus spotted.


Evasion tips:

TMO AI has a reputation, and while it is certainly (by design) tougher to provide a challenge, more realism, and excitement to the sim (lets face it, attacking, being detected by enemy without being attacked can be quite anticlimactic) , it is not unbeatable, or impossible. Actually, I find it somewhat easy most of the time. Key to survival is patience, which was key for real sub skippers and crews. Many players get impatient, because the AI is persistent. Remember, evading enemy escorts is a marathon, not a race.

1. Make sure silent running is engaged. The way to sim does silent running, is when this is activated, you run on "hidden" electric engines, a silent drive, which emits less noise than the "regular" electric engines. Your boat also emits less noise, representing the shut down of certain noisy equipment.

2. Run at 100 rpm or less, 1/3 speed on silent running is 2 knots on most submarines. Running at 1 knot is not advised as it basically makes your sub immobile and easy to locate. Exception is if low on battery power and need to conserve precious "juice". Should also be noted than when your electric motors/prop shafts are damaged, your boat makes more noise, even on silent running. The "ghost" engines mentioned, which your boat uses in silent running can take damage, which makes boat not as quiet.


3. Change depth, speed, and course often. This confuses the AI as to your exact location.

One method I use, which I read about in the book "silent running" by Adm Calvert (excellent book) is the "Dykers Method" (named after USS JACK's CO, Thomas Dykers). Always keep 5-10 degrees starboard or port rudder on, so the sub is always in a slow turn, never heading on a straight course. Alternate port and starboard after each depth charge run by the escort.

When escort is roaring overhead about to drop, go ahead full or flank (I use full because gets enough speed but over time does not drain as much battery power) for sixty seconds or so. Then all stop and let the subs momentum carry the sub along for about 45 seconds. hen go back to 1/3 speed. Repeat this process along with the gradual turns, alternating.

For Depth. A lot of people think going right to max depth is the goal and that is not necessarily so in TMO. Salmon class test depth is 250, you can safely go to 300-350 feet no problem. Typically when in a silent running, rigged for depth charge situation, I go to 250 first and level out. Then ease down to 300, then 325, 350 and try to keep it between 350 and 375 feet. This gradual descent, combined with the various course and speed changes confuses the AI over time. I rarely have to go below 375 feet in a Salmon/Sargo. Funny how it works is can be at 380 feet cant shake escorts, ease down to 390 to push things, and they eventually lose contact. Its the way various things are modeled and how they are modeled is complicated in various factors....sea state, location on earth (sonar conditions vary. Generally at or below equator conditions improve for the enemy, further north of equator conditions are typically not as favorable, enemy skill level, type of sonar gear (later war sets are obviously better than early war) etc.

Reason to avoid extreme depths, esp in older boats, is the older boats cant handle the pressure at such depths if take any hull damage from depth charges. A Salmon at 450 feet takes some hull damage, has a higher probability of hull failure than say a Gato or Balao at 450, because the hulls are not as strong, their max depth tolerances are different. Even in a Gato, I try not to exceed 400 feet. Balao, 500 feet is pretty standard, as it was in real life.

I am guessing here, but I assume how you lost your boat was some charges landed close, you were at 150 meters, your hull took damage and then went to 100?


I did a pretty extensive revamp of the damage model and depth charges in the TMO Update for more realism. The magic "killing blows" i.e. the one depth charge explodes, not that close but its random chance gives it the full hit points of 250 or so (when subs max hit points are usually 325-350) , causing a hull collapse. In real life, most subs were not lost like this, as it is very difficult to get depth charges close enough for that "killing blow", they were lost due to damage accumulated, knocking out key systems combined with flooding etc. In the update, subs are lost due to damage key systems being disabled and flooding typically. One thing though, is if are at extreme depth for that class of boat and a DC damages the hull, even a little, can lead to hull collapse. The game does seem to model the effects of depth charges differently at different depths. A charge at 600 feet certainly seems to have more effect than one at 100 feet.

I have made further refinements to the damage model in the next version of the TMO Update.



4.Note when you hear reports of a thermal layer. While this does not completely nerf the AI, it definitely diminishes their sonar returns, so listen for reports of thermal layers and try to level off a few feet below. So Thermal layer at 200 feet, try to level off at 205-210 feet for a few minutes, then go deeper.


5.Depth Charge Disturbance Mod. Below is a link to the modified version of The DarkWraiths depth charge disturbance mod. This mod adds in (something UBI left out) the noise/water disturbances caused by underwater explosions of depth charges, which makes it so for short time enemy escorts cant hear your sub. Now, I had to make them have less duration than in real life because in the sim, one or two big patterns just nerfed their sound gear and made it very easy for player to escape since they would lose contact.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=6064

Last edited by Bubblehead1980; 01-26-2022 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 01-26-2022, 11:50 AM   #12
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I have no words for it, really thanks for your help. Certainly using this knowledge, over the time, my boats aren't goin to be sunk (at least in record time). Thank you
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