[REL] Knights of the Sea Depths II: Ace Edition

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Are realistic/historically accurate night surface attacks possible in this mod?


Including getting inside the convoy on the surface?

Fwiw, this was not a common tactic. A very, very few did it (only two I can think of).......sometimes, not even always. In terms of "realism" of the mod, the lack of wolfpack attacks is a far greater issue than this.
But that is because of the game's structure, not the mod maker(s), who have done an outstanding job with what they have available.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Fwiw, this was not a common tactic. A very, very few did it (only two I can think of).......sometimes, not even always. In terms of "realism" of the mod, the lack of wolfpack attacks is a far greater issue than this.
But that is because of the game's structure, not the mod maker(s), who have done an outstanding job with what they have available.

Night surface attacks were not common?


I thought, much as it later did with US (who were copying the Germans to that degree) in the pacific, night surface attack became the preferred method for U Boats, especially before Allied radar advanced.


Or did you you mean getting inside convoy was not common ? If so, I figured that, but since it was done, believe should be possible in the sim and up to player. I made it possible in TMO with certain convoys in 1944/45 when they are larger, somewhat resembling Allied convoys(never as many ships though. A lot depends on the moonlight and sea state though. Really a lot of "fun" brings a new level to the sim and quite effective in attacks, can see it being same on U boat side.


I agree on the wolfpack issue, yet another huge oversight by UBI.


In TMO I have US wolfpacks operating on a limited basis in latest TMO update. I placed AI torpedo firing subs...submerged and surfaced in players area, along convoy routes at appropriate times and dates.

They will attack independently and if within certain radius, they will respond to players contact reports on convoys by searching for the convoy Of course there is no coordination nor communication outside of scripted messages I placed in the campaign, but especially during night surface attack when ships start blowing up before you fire, but it gives player the feeling of operating with other subs. They will torpedo enemy ships, provide distraction that assists players.

Plays out much as US wolfpacks operated, which was of course different than German operations.



I could see a way to make it happen with U Boats, of course would be a much large scale etc and would need AI uboats that fire torpedoes, but could be done. I have them in TMO, but the AI U boats need some tweaking, we've had issues.



In TMO Update I recently released, I have a SUBRON 50 campaign, US subs operating in Atlantic 1942-1943. One mission (as some were assigned) is to patrol for U-Boats in North Atlantic. I added a wolfpack of U Boats in a patrol line. I placed them, used text editing to set their spacing beyond what the mission editor allows in mission file, spaced about 50 miles apart along the general line of atlantic convoys.


One night in March 1943, I made SJ contact on a convoy in North Atlantic and then noticed fires burning in the distance, explosions. Wolfpack was attacking the convoy. Difficult to ascertain exact number but at least 8 U Boats attacked the convoy. I managed to get visual on one U boat and sunk it with torpedoes.


One key is the surfaced models while appear as subs, as classified in game as the Elite Destroyer Escorts, so they behave aggressively. They fire torpedoes, The submerged subs are of course submarines, they are not as aggressive but will attack and are affectively.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Night surface attacks were not common?


I thought, much as it later did with US (who were copying the Germans to that degree) in the pacific, night surface attack became the preferred method for U Boats, especially before Allied radar advanced.


Or did you you mean getting inside convoy was not common ? If so, I figured that, but since it was done, believe should be possible in the sim and up to player. I made it possible in TMO with certain convoys in 1944/45 when they are larger, somewhat resembling Allied convoys(never as many ships though. A lot depends on the moonlight and sea state though. Really a lot of "fun" brings a new level to the sim and quite effective in attacks, can see it being same on U boat side.


I agree on the wolfpack issue, yet another huge oversight by UBI.


In TMO I have US wolfpacks operating on a limited basis in latest TMO update. I placed AI torpedo firing subs...submerged and surfaced in players area, along convoy routes at appropriate times and dates.

They will attack independently and if within certain radius, they will respond to players contact reports on convoys by searching for the convoy Of course there is no coordination nor communication outside of scripted messages I placed in the campaign, but especially during night surface attack when ships start blowing up before you fire, but it gives player the feeling of operating with other subs. They will torpedo enemy ships, provide distraction that assists players.

Plays out much as US wolfpacks operated, which was of course different than German operations.



I could see a way to make it happen with U Boats, of course would be a much large scale etc and would need AI uboats that fire torpedoes, but could be done. I have them in TMO, but the AI U boats need some tweaking, we've had issues.



In TMO Update I recently released, I have a SUBRON 50 campaign, US subs operating in Atlantic 1942-1943. One mission (as some were assigned) is to patrol for U-Boats in North Atlantic. I added a wolfpack of U Boats in a patrol line. I placed them, used text editing to set their spacing beyond what the mission editor allows in mission file, spaced about 50 miles apart along the general line of atlantic convoys.


One night in March 1943, I made SJ contact on a convoy in North Atlantic and then noticed fires burning in the distance, explosions. Wolfpack was attacking the convoy. Difficult to ascertain exact number but at least 8 U Boats attacked the convoy. I managed to get visual on one U boat and sunk it with torpedoes.


One key is the surfaced models while appear as subs, as classified in game as the Elite Destroyer Escorts, so they behave aggressively. They fire torpedoes, The submerged subs are of course submarines, they are not as aggressive but will attack and are affectively.

My post was in reference to inside the convoy attacks. But I'd rather have the ability to do these vs. the game(s) allowing ahistorical night periscope attacks to be possible.
Fwiw, inside the convoy attacks in the Atlantic would also only be possible very early war, before the advent of Allied ship borne radar (March, 41)

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

My post was in reference to inside the convoy attacks. But I'd rather have the ability to do these vs. the game(s) allowing ahistorical night periscope attacks to be possible.

Thought so, just checking.

Yes same, here. Well, I think to balance it as I did in the pacific side of things is the key. Make it possible to get inside and attack as some did, but not possibly every time with every convoy. Players can choose to risk it or attack from outside or on a full moon, conduct a periscope attack.


Germans did make periscope attacks at night in certain conditions correct?

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Thought so, just checking.

Yes same, here. Well, I think to balance it as I did in the pacific side of things is the key. Make it possible to get inside and attack as some did, but not possibly every time with every convoy. Players can choose to risk it or attack from outside or on a full moon, conduct a periscope attack.


Germans did make periscope attacks at night in certain conditions correct?

Only even considered on the brightest of full moon nights. Periscope attacks in general were discouraged due to limiting the ability of the boat to maintain contact with the convoy and the ability of the boat to escape.

I.e., generally, woe to the skipper who called in a daylight convoy contact and then did a scope attack vs. shadowing it until night.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Only even considered on the brightest of full moon nights. Periscope attacks in general were discouraged due to limiting the ability of the boat to maintain contact with the convoy and the ability of the boat to escape.

I.e., generally, woe to the skipper who called in a daylight convoy contact and then did a scope attack vs. shadowing it until night.

Interesting.


The amount of micromanagement of U Boats has always amazed me. Quite sad also, as was a huge part of their downfall (and loss of many lives).

[Niume]

I also believe that sensors need a rework from ground up. Sadly I don't have time for it.