Help Classifying a Contact

ddiplock · 12-25-10, 09:36 AM

Hey guys, I'm in the second campaign mission for the Russians in Sub Command, track the leaving US submarine.

Now, I admit I have been using a combo of my sensors and show truth on the map until I get comfortable with playing properly, turning show truth off for exteded periods and playing using only my sensors, show truth only comes on for a few seconds to confirm how accurate my detections are being. I have detected the US submarine, and classified it on the map (without show truth on). I know it is a 688i class submarine, yet in my narrowband sonar, with the filter on, its throwing up a load of merchant class ships such as cargo, oiler etc etc.....I already KNOW this contact is the US submarine because of the show truth I have.

I have designated the contact on my broadband sonar to keep track. I have input 7 turns per knot into the DEMON sensor but I'm getting wild speed estimates of 25 knots, the show truth shows the 688i to be submerged and going at 8 knots. Basically, how can I successfully classify a contact so the DEMON system actually KNOWS what contact speed its estimating?

I know its the 688i, but with the Akula it seems I can't find a way to physically input that classification into the system, and as I said with the filter on, my narrowband is throwing up the totally wrong contact classifications. I've turned filter off and selected 688i myself, but doesn't seem to be working.

Any help?

Thanks

TLAM Strike · 12-25-10, 10:09 AM

You can classify the contact on the nav map on all the submarines. Just right click on the contact.

Are you getting the wild speed estimates on DEMON or on TMA? Your Auto TMA will give you crazy data sometimes since it doesn't "talk" to sonar, it only works on bearing information. If its on DEMON make sure the cursor is on the far left of the first line (the "Shaft Line" I think that one is called). Also count the blades (should be 7) to make sure its the right contact, you can merge two separate contacts in to one by mistake.

ddiplock · 12-25-10, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

You can classify the contact on the nav map on all the submarines. Just right click on the contact.

Are you getting the wild speed estimates on DEMON or on TMA? Your Auto TMA will give you crazy data sometimes since it doesn't "talk" to sonar, it only works on bearing information. If its on DEMON make sure the cursor is on the far left of the first line (the "Shaft Line" I think that one is called). Also count the blades (should be 7) to make sure its the right contact, you can merge two separate contacts in to one by mistake.

Yeah I have done that already, because I know what the contact is. But my mission status is still saying "incomplete" for detecting the sub, so not quite sure what I have to do there.

Also, on the DEMON screen I only have one solid line going down the screen for the desigated contact that is the 688i, granted that is dependant on the frequency, but no matter what frequency when I move the cursor over the line, speed estimates for 7tpk are coming out at 25 knots

At the higher frequency range I have 4 lines scrolling across the screen.

ddiplock · 12-25-10, 10:51 AM

Now the 688i is sitting about 2 miles away from me according to the show truth on the nav map, and I can't even find him on my broadband towed array. Zero, zilch, zip. not a single spike on the array. I get faint readings on the narrowband, but even with the filter on, I get "NONE" on the contact classification on the narrowband screen.

Not sure how I'm going to complete this mission with a successfull detection when he's that close and my towed array can't even find him. He's clipping along at 8 knots according to show truth, and i'm creeping along at 3 knots....surely my broadband towed should be picking up something? There's not even any noise/signal detections on the broadband towed either!! He's there, but if you follow my sonar, he's up and dissapeared

ddiplock · 12-25-10, 06:54 PM

Sad to report I have failed this mission. He was close to me, perhaps a mile or less from what I could see with show truth on, but despite that my array's just couldn't get a locate on him, not a single spike at all!!!!

I'm now presuming detecting other submarines is pretty much an art in itself when compared to tracking surface ships. I detected him on the surface, lost him when he went under and never found him again.

I think I should play around with the single missions instead until I get a proper hand on how to use the sensors and detect other subs.

TLAM Strike · 12-25-10, 09:52 PM

That DEMON contact doesn't sound like a sub. 20+ knots, four blades sounds like a powerboat or something. If that sub was hauling it at over 20 knots you should see all seven blades at that range.

Check your gamma settings, if the gamma is low faint tonals will not show up on the narrowband screen.

ddiplock · 12-26-10, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

That DEMON contact doesn't sound like a sub. 20+ knots, four blades sounds like a powerboat or something. If that sub was hauling it at over 20 knots you should see all seven blades at that range.

Check your gamma settings, if the gamma is low faint tonals will not show up on the narrowband screen.

Yeah that's a problem too. So there should of been seven lines on the DEMON screen, ie one line for each prop on the propeller shaft?

Who knows, maybe even with show truth on I managed to classify the wrong ship.......god if I really did do that that's just stupidity on my part

TLAM Strike · 12-26-10, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddiplock

So there should of been seven lines on the DEMON screen, ie one line for each prop on the propeller shaft?

Yes one for each blade.

You can find the number of blades listed for each class of ship in the USNI.

ddiplock · 12-26-10, 12:14 PM

This game is fun, but can be so frustrating

I just tried the mission where u have to damage the Russian carrier Kuznetsov. I made it in past the screen and got into a good firing position, got all the TMA data, calculated 24 knots of speed etc and funnily enough it matched up with the show truth data on the map. Horray!!!

BUT, I wasted ALOT of time fiddling around on the TMA screen. When putting in the data and locking in the target speed for a solution, you lose the ability to resize and adjust the ruler on the bearing lines, its only if you unlock it that you can adjust it at will. Problem is, with it unlocked, your target speed totally changes as you adjust the ruler on the bearing lines to line up the tick marks and then becomes wrong from the 24 knots I got from the DEMON. This also results in a very crappy dot stack when trying to "stack the dots"......the Kuznetsov was real close to me due to all my time wasted fiddling around on the TMA screen I fired off 4 torpedos and they all went off in the wrong direction.....I knew that was going to happen because my dot stack was crappy.

When I lock in the speed for 24 knots, the ruler becomes MASSIVE. And there are not enough bearing lines to then match the ruler ticks with the lines......so what can you then do atbout that??

TLAM Strike · 12-26-10, 02:23 PM

Right click on the TMA plot and select a longer time display.

When you lock in the speed try to match up the bearing lines (newest is most important) and not worry too much about the older ones.

One trick I like is to get the LOBs to cross at two points one when you are matching the target's course and one where you are not, the target's range is somewhere between those two crossing points.

Also plan your maneuvers as TMA legs. Change your course and make 1/4 of a circle around the target to narrow down its range.

I recommend reading this:
http://www.commanders-academy.com/fo...do=file&id=147

and this:
http://www.commanders-academy.com/fo...do=file&id=143

and this:
http://www.commanders-academy.com/fo...do=file&id=141

(Links listed from Advanced to Beginner in scope.)

ddiplock · 12-26-10, 07:56 PM

Reckon I'll ask this here rather than opening a new thread:

But how effective does Sub Command actually model the effectiveness of submarine passive sonar?

Many times I am in a position where I can see a ship visually with my periscope....yet cannot get a whiff of him anywhere on my spherical or towed arrays OR find anything on the narrowband. If I didn't see them in my periscope or hear their sonar pings, you'd never even know they were near.

Why am I finding myself in situations where I'm just not detecting these ships until they are literally right on top of me? With this equipment I should be able to hear them from miles off.

TLAM Strike · 12-26-10, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddiplock

Reckon I'll ask this here rather than opening a new thread:

But how effective does Sub Command actually model the effectiveness of submarine passive sonar?

Many times I am in a position where I can see a ship visually with my periscope....yet cannot get a whiff of him anywhere on my spherical or towed arrays OR find anything on the narrowband. If I didn't see them in my periscope or hear their sonar pings, you'd never even know they were near.

Why am I finding myself in situations where I'm just not detecting these ships until they are literally right on top of me? With this equipment I should be able to hear them from miles off.

Stupid question: On the towed array narrowband is the freq scale turned down low?

Also check you gamma settings. There is a bitmap file included with TimmG00's TACMAN that will help you adjust them if they are too low.

Molon Labe · 12-26-10, 11:53 PM

@TLAM: Can you believe I never read the Redbook until you posted it just now? Pretty good stuff...

Back on topic, it can be hard to pin down issues with passive sonar because of the number of possible variables. If you're using the Seawolf especially, monitor issues can be responsible. Far less likely with the Akula, though. I can assure you my monitor settings where correct, yet the mission with the Kilos in the Strait of Hormuz I always had to use the periscope as my principal sensor--passive was useless. Acoustic conditions can vary, a lot, so your experiences in one mission can be very different from the next.

goldorak · 12-30-10, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

@TLAM: Can you believe I never read the Redbook until you posted it just now? Pretty good stuff...

Its not pretty good stuff, its great stuff. It complements the tactical multiplayer employment manual, especially in how you deal with updating the tma solution without starting from zero. Pretty powerfull stuff.
And also it explains the pitfalls of the auto tma and how you can trick it, very useful against players that use autotma.

12-25-10, 09:36 AM	#1
ddiplock Samurai Navy Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 552 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	Help Classifying a Contact Hey guys, I'm in the second campaign mission for the Russians in Sub Command, track the leaving US submarine. Now, I admit I have been using a combo of my sensors and show truth on the map until I get comfortable with playing properly, turning show truth off for exteded periods and playing using only my sensors, show truth only comes on for a few seconds to confirm how accurate my detections are being. I have detected the US submarine, and classified it on the map (without show truth on). I know it is a 688i class submarine, yet in my narrowband sonar, with the filter on, its throwing up a load of merchant class ships such as cargo, oiler etc etc.....I already KNOW this contact is the US submarine because of the show truth I have. I have designated the contact on my broadband sonar to keep track. I have input 7 turns per knot into the DEMON sensor but I'm getting wild speed estimates of 25 knots, the show truth shows the 688i to be submerged and going at 8 knots. Basically, how can I successfully classify a contact so the DEMON system actually KNOWS what contact speed its estimating? I know its the 688i, but with the Akula it seems I can't find a way to physically input that classification into the system, and as I said with the filter on, my narrowband is throwing up the totally wrong contact classifications. I've turned filter off and selected 688i myself, but doesn't seem to be working. Any help? Thanks

12-25-10, 10:09 AM	#2
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	You can classify the contact on the nav map on all the submarines. Just right click on the contact. Are you getting the wild speed estimates on DEMON or on TMA? Your Auto TMA will give you crazy data sometimes since it doesn't "talk" to sonar, it only works on bearing information. If its on DEMON make sure the cursor is on the far left of the first line (the "Shaft Line" I think that one is called). Also count the blades (should be 7) to make sure its the right contact, you can merge two separate contacts in to one by mistake. __________________

12-25-10, 09:52 PM	#6
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	That DEMON contact doesn't sound like a sub. 20+ knots, four blades sounds like a powerboat or something. If that sub was hauling it at over 20 knots you should see all seven blades at that range. Check your gamma settings, if the gamma is low faint tonals will not show up on the narrowband screen. __________________

12-26-10, 02:23 PM	#10
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	Right click on the TMA plot and select a longer time display. When you lock in the speed try to match up the bearing lines (newest is most important) and not worry too much about the older ones. One trick I like is to get the LOBs to cross at two points one when you are matching the target's course and one where you are not, the target's range is somewhere between those two crossing points. Also plan your maneuvers as TMA legs. Change your course and make 1/4 of a circle around the target to narrow down its range. I recommend reading this: http://www.commanders-academy.com/fo...do=file&id=147 and this: http://www.commanders-academy.com/fo...do=file&id=143 and this: http://www.commanders-academy.com/fo...do=file&id=141 (Links listed from Advanced to Beginner in scope.) __________________

12-26-10, 11:53 PM	#13
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	@TLAM: Can you believe I never read the Redbook until you posted it just now? Pretty good stuff... Back on topic, it can be hard to pin down issues with passive sonar because of the number of possible variables. If you're using the Seawolf especially, monitor issues can be responsible. Far less likely with the Akula, though. I can assure you my monitor settings where correct, yet the mission with the Kilos in the Strait of Hormuz I always had to use the periscope as my principal sensor--passive was useless. Acoustic conditions can vary, a lot, so your experiences in one mission can be very different from the next. __________________

12-25-10, 10:51 AM	#4
ddiplock Samurai Navy Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 552 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	Now the 688i is sitting about 2 miles away from me according to the show truth on the nav map, and I can't even find him on my broadband towed array. Zero, zilch, zip. not a single spike on the array. I get faint readings on the narrowband, but even with the filter on, I get "NONE" on the contact classification on the narrowband screen. Not sure how I'm going to complete this mission with a successfull detection when he's that close and my towed array can't even find him. He's clipping along at 8 knots according to show truth, and i'm creeping along at 3 knots....surely my broadband towed should be picking up something? There's not even any noise/signal detections on the broadband towed either!! He's there, but if you follow my sonar, he's up and dissapeared

12-25-10, 06:54 PM	#5
ddiplock Samurai Navy Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 552 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	Sad to report I have failed this mission. He was close to me, perhaps a mile or less from what I could see with show truth on, but despite that my array's just couldn't get a locate on him, not a single spike at all!!!! I'm now presuming detecting other submarines is pretty much an art in itself when compared to tracking surface ships. I detected him on the surface, lost him when he went under and never found him again. I think I should play around with the single missions instead until I get a proper hand on how to use the sensors and detect other subs.

12-26-10, 12:14 PM	#9
ddiplock Samurai Navy Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 552 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	This game is fun, but can be so frustrating I just tried the mission where u have to damage the Russian carrier Kuznetsov. I made it in past the screen and got into a good firing position, got all the TMA data, calculated 24 knots of speed etc and funnily enough it matched up with the show truth data on the map. Horray!!! BUT, I wasted ALOT of time fiddling around on the TMA screen. When putting in the data and locking in the target speed for a solution, you lose the ability to resize and adjust the ruler on the bearing lines, its only if you unlock it that you can adjust it at will. Problem is, with it unlocked, your target speed totally changes as you adjust the ruler on the bearing lines to line up the tick marks and then becomes wrong from the 24 knots I got from the DEMON. This also results in a very crappy dot stack when trying to "stack the dots"......the Kuznetsov was real close to me due to all my time wasted fiddling around on the TMA screen I fired off 4 torpedos and they all went off in the wrong direction.....I knew that was going to happen because my dot stack was crappy. When I lock in the speed for 24 knots, the ruler becomes MASSIVE. And there are not enough bearing lines to then match the ruler ticks with the lines......so what can you then do atbout that??

12-26-10, 07:56 PM	#11
ddiplock Samurai Navy Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 552 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	Reckon I'll ask this here rather than opening a new thread: But how effective does Sub Command actually model the effectiveness of submarine passive sonar? Many times I am in a position where I can see a ship visually with my periscope....yet cannot get a whiff of him anywhere on my spherical or towed arrays OR find anything on the narrowband. If I didn't see them in my periscope or hear their sonar pings, you'd never even know they were near. Why am I finding myself in situations where I'm just not detecting these ships until they are literally right on top of me? With this equipment I should be able to hear them from miles off.