SC sonar puzzle

[Robsoie]

Hello,

I am relatively new to this game (using SC 1.08, no SCX2 as i am learning the base game before migrating to the mod), after lots of reading and testing in the mission editor and trying some missions, i think i was beginning to understand the sonar and TMA functions.

Well, until i tried to play the campaign for the SSN688i

In the 1st mission "Halifax", no problem, i stay undetected while approaching both targets under 4 nautic miles then going to periscop depth, as instructed.

As instructed i then wait until 2230 and use the radio antenna to recieve the HQ message telling me to see if i can confirm an Akula presence in the sector.
After roaming the see and finding only fishings boats and other civilians vessels , i found no sonar contact that could be identified as a russian sub (the first fishing boat could have been one, but from the demon and going nearer lead me to confirm it was just a fishing boat).
Even if i didn't found it, the mission was completed anyways.

So i tried then the second mission "Port Egress" in which i must reach a release zone and optionally confirm the presence of an Akula and 2 other russian hardware.
Considering my lack of success at detecting the Akula in the previous mission, i used the AI crew to replace me in the sonar.

After a while, always adjusting my depth to be near the sea ground (as in that mission the sea ground is very near the surface) and never going more than 5 knots, after detecting lots of civilian boats , i am warned that i am counter-detected (maybe one of those civilian boats was a traitor , can't be sure).

Then +/- 10mn later, near the release zone, the AI crew warn me of a sierra 10 detected and in the same time a scenario message warn me that the Akula is detected. So S10 is the Akula despite it can't be confirmed, as apparently the scenario does not need the Akula to be confirmed, it is just scripted so as soon as a trace appear it is considered detected.

So i went to the sonar station, looked at each screen and was totally puzzled :

J is the S10 position



On the narrow broadband i put the cursor above where S10 was detected.

As you can see (ignore the JPG compression artefacts that could lead into thinking there was a slight trace, there is really nothing in fact) there is nothing on both.
Those for the towed array, the sphere array showed nothing either.
Usually in my tests in the mission editor i was able to detect a sub because of very faint trace on the narrowband search, but in that situation i see zero faint trace the screen is well black.

So, certainly something has escaped me during my learning sessions, as none of the screen on the towed array (even on sphere) show anything where that S10 is supposed to have been detected.

Any ideas to help me understand why i see nothing and why the AI crew was capable of detecting a contact in S10 position ?

[Blacklight]

Your sonarman has AWESOME hearing and eyesight !!

Embrace him !!!

I mean.... you could have ended up with Bernard on board instead of this guy !

[Robsoie]

Too late, that AI guy with detection super powers has been promoted to Fleet Admiral after that mission

I wonder if the enemy AI sub can have such superman-like AI when it comes to sonar earing ?

From my tests, it seems the surface ships do not as i have never been detected by one (unless of course i just surface or go fast at PD near to it ) , but i wonder if the enemy subs do, as sometime in my mission editor testings was surprised to see a torpedoes being appearing on the sonar while nothing could be located in this bearing before (but i never used AI sonar crew before though).

Sometime i can catch a sub without it noticing my presence, sometime not and i see torpedoes launched against me, and it does not seem to be related to thermic depth levels as i couldn't find a reproducable pattern.

I wonder if there is a % of chances at a mission start an enemy AI sub could have the same kind of "superman" sonar crew i had on that mission ?

[Frame57]

You can actually move the cursor on the screen and sometimes pick up contacts that will not yet appear as a faint line. even though this game has audio on a speaker. Sonar tech used head sets that had variable controls for specific listening. this game does not have that. at least for you to use, so it may be modled into the game that is what the auto crew is doing in picking up a contact you are seeing. I have picked up contacts by moving the cursor around even though i did not see a visible line. Also you find that your auto crew contacts will pick up surface craft far more easily than submerged ones. The TPK will always be a good indicator for you when you classify a contact. use your DEMON. Try to stay at 4 knts when you are classifying a possible suberged contact and forget using the sphere array for this. Use TA and hull. So position yourself to full advantage for those arrays when using them. Also when you are in shallow waters be aware that your towed array can and will malfunction if it scrapes the bottom and will not be useful to you.

[Kapitan]

I bat for the otherside (i command akulas) you have the advantage of better sonar display systems and you also have history which i dont have, your sensors are a bit better than mine but its not always about that a skipper with an obsolete boat but superior tactics could win hands down.

I recently played a game against a human controlled Ohio i made some mistakes however my tactics in trying to find him worked i did find him and i got a torpedo right on target (caused 31% damage) however obviously my launch was detected hence he sent MK48ADCAPS back at me this is where i screwed up i decided to make sure he was dead by staying shallow and firing off four more ASW rockets i didnt leave myself enough time to evade hence i was killed, but the ruling was first hit first dead.

[Robsoie]

Thank you for the hints Frame57 and Kapitan, it is always interesting to read reports of more experienced sub commanders.

On the mission 3 (in which the 688i must follow and go near a Udaloy and spy on the AA missile tests), i disabled the auto crew again (as they may spot better than me, but i find more interesting to search echos for myself) and managed to pick the Akula I in my sonars (the same one from mission 1&2 of the campaign, as it seems to follow you in the scenarios).

It seems it was not aware of my presence, so as orders were to avoid any combat, i managed to move around at a reasonnable distance from it while approaching the Udaloy. There certainly must have been a malfunction as the Udaloy fired the missile while i was under 3 nautic miles of it, i got the datas collected, but it never destroyed the plane moving around.

The Udaloy was pinging the water like crazy during all the mission, and as it never went in the red, i assume it never located me. Because i never made test against warships yet, is this normal that i could approach under 3 nautic miles and go at PD as instructed in the briefing without being detected , or was the Udaloy somewhat toned down for the mission scenario ?

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

I bat for the otherside (i command akulas) you have the advantage of better sonar display systems and you also have history which i dont have, your sensors are a bit better than mine but its not always about that a skipper with an obsolete boat but superior tactics could win hands down.

I recently played a game against a human controlled Ohio i made some mistakes however my tactics in trying to find him worked i did find him and i got a torpedo right on target (caused 31% damage) however obviously my launch was detected hence he sent MK48ADCAPS back at me this is where i screwed up i decided to make sure he was dead by staying shallow and firing off four more ASW rockets i didnt leave myself enough time to evade hence i was killed, but the ruling was first hit first dead.

My game must be the lemon of the bunch. I swear that my crew on any US Sub just sucks. They really do. I run an Akula or the Sierra boats and they do a spectacular job. I run Sc with SCX and no matter how many times i run an SSN-21 or 688i they (autocrew) cannot seem to pick up anything over 10K yards. The Russian boats can up to 50k yards. Everytime I bring this up, no else seems to have this issue, but I cannot see why my game would be any different than another. So, I just drive the Sierra and have drydocked all the others which sucks because it will become dull after awhile.

[Kapitan]

There are two types of DDG of the russian navy and both do thier jobs equally as well, you got the ASUW sovremenny which takles air and surface contacts and the udaloys which are ASW and they takle submarines.

Udaloy is about similar size to a burke maybe a bit smaller but they do do thier jobs well, hard units to get away from if your caught and tracked they are backed up by two choppers as well normaly if on a patrol they are paired with a sovvy.

[Robsoie]

Well, it seems that now my sub inherited this dumb crew AI in sonar , it has replaced the superman guy for sure in my current mission.

I am currently at the mission in which my 688 must enter a port and wait there until the Akula supposed to be on surface in it will leave, then have my sub stealthly following it.

Following the coastline , i detect at long distance in northeast at sea a fishing boat and a russian unidentified yet warship (that is pinging the water), i manage to enter the port undetected, and on the sphere sonar (as in the port the towed array is nearly HS due to the parasites), i notice nothing special and i recieve the order to wait here for the Akula.

And so i full stop my sub wait there, i placed myself +/- near the middle of the port entrance and oriented the sub toward the entrance to get the sphere array at a better efficiency.
As it could take time, to wait +/- a real hour doing nothing, i activated the AI crew because i remembered of the AI superman 3 missions earlier, and accelerated the time.

After nearly 2 hours of accelerated time, always nothing at all.

Well, as someone mentionned that sometime the AI crew is really bad, before i quit that game to see if the mission was having a bug, i pressed the "show truth" and noticed the Akula far far away from the port moving north.

After the superman AI crew i had, this time i had the dumb one, unable to detect a surfaced or nearly surfaced (as in the port the sea level is not very high Akula moving very near my sub.

I wish the HQ would warn me when they sent the dumb or the superman version of the AI sonar crew, this way i would see if i should do the work myself or not.

I begin to wonder, does accelerated time is fatal for the AI efficiency, as that dumb blind AI problem has occured during the time acceleration ?

[Frame57]

Yep, I had one of those get me. That was what got me about these modled boats not being able to go deep fast by increasing the down angle of the boat. A critical tactic in a real combat situation. So I stay deep with a Sierra class and take em out with wake homing torp.

[Pisces]

How far was your TA streamed in the earlier missions? As far as it would go before washing out? I understand the seabed was shallow, then it is important not to go too slow, because the TA droops more. 6 knots is usually enough for a straigth TA, and quiet enough (ehh, or whas that DW, SC has been too long ago for me). Second, there's the important improvement by adjusting the brightness/gamma settings of your monitor/videocard.

[Robsoie]

As i was at full stop, while waiting for the Akula to move near me, i imagine the towed array was in fact falling to the sea floor, and so that's why it was making all those parasites.

But i was using the sphere array for that detection, and the AI crew has not been able to detect the Akula passing near (considering that i was at the port entrance and the water were shallow, i imagine the distance between my 688 and the Akula must have been very very small, i just hoped there would be no collision).

Moving to get the towed array in function, while being that near an Akula would have been suicide as i doubt the Akula sonar AI crew would have been as blind as mine, and i was forbidden to attack, but the Akula had no such orders

I believe the accelerated time may have been a part of that AI crew blindness problem, as it is possible the AI scripts calculations and loops may have "jumped" a bit in such case.

I will try without accelerating time when i will be in the port entrance again to see if it was indeed the problem.

Thanks for the brightness/gamma settings idea, i never thought of doing that, it should help.

[Frame57]

Hi Rob, another tip that the game seems to like is to use your high frequency sonar. Located on the Dive control panel (Not active Sonar). This will pick up close contacts that are too quiet for passive sonar to pu. Which in real life is bogus, because I spent quite a few patrols on the 678 boat where we "Hovered" near the bottom of the barents sea and were. Hovering is a feature that the game does not have. But I guess setting your depth near the bottom (shallow waters) will duplicate this. Then we are at all stop and use our SPM to adjust for current drifting. We would pick up anything coming into or leaving the Soviet Union. That was circa 70-80's and for the pitiful inability for the autocrew to pick up stuff when you are going slow is a design flaw with the game. I have run these scenarios and the info to a few sonar techs who knew the BQQ-5 like the back of their hand, and they chuckle and tell me it is just a game and very unrealistic as far as the Sonar capabilities are concerned. I think Sonalysts has some real sims they developed for the US Navy and purposefully scaled back the true BQQ-5 ability in the game for classified reasons. One ST told me once, "you give me a BQQ-5 and I can detect whales farting 5 miles away!" At some point I hope to be able to file edit these settings, so that the reflection will be more realistic. Have you played SH4? That is called a sim as well, and notice how the Sonar picks up contacts so well? By sheer comparison with a modern day sub against an old diesel boat, it seems the old boats actually had better sonar than today. But that is not the case. Someday maybe a sim will come out that gives us more realism. But until then use high frequency sonar for the ability to find close objects and subs in this game.

[Robsoie]

Ah, that's interesting, thanks for the pointer.

I really wondered if subs detection was very difficult at relatively short distance on purpose in comparison to games i play sometime like Ace of the Deeps or Silent Hunter 1 (both WW2 subs), or if it was a game design problem.

I have read about the SCX/SCU mod that is supposed to re-adjust all the detections and more of the subs ingame, along with adding more subs, but as i was playing the stock missions so far i avoided to install it , as i imagined the stock mission were designed with the original sonar detection ranges and accuracy in mind, and so this mod could break those missions.

But in front of that limitation of the original game, should i install SCX/SCU, or will it make this specific problem worse ?

[Frame57]

By all means install it. The guys did a superb job. It makes it much more fun to play. I like it much more than Dangerous waters. You can control a lot more subs in it. You just have to get creative with using your sonar. I have found that even with auto crew on, I can still move the cursor through the spectrum and this will help pick up contacts more readily. I dunno! I think they programed the autocrew with Gilligan or somebody. Using MK-48's in the game tend to screw up, so be watchful about that and be prepared to use the wire guidance a lot. Whatever you do forget ever using the fire control auto crew. They NEVER get the settings right! Do your weapons presets yourself, just remember to have "Show Truth" in the options turned off or you will not be able to adjust them. All in all this is the most fun game allong with 688i, but that game is not as graphically nice, but the auto crew in that game actually does their job in a non remedial fashion like the nitwits on these boats in SC. Same people made them (Sonalysts), so go figure why they decided Gilligan would be the sonar techs in an otherwise terrific game???