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Old 03-19-21, 10:15 PM   #1
SixthFall
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Default Keep missing torpedoes

Hey everyone, going someone can help me here, I keep missing my torpedoes! I'm using sh5 with twos, and everytime I line up a shot ( not the fast 90, I can pull that off pretty easy) I end up missing with my torpedoes going to the rear of the target. I use the manual tdc obviously, and I'll calculate range mostly with the stadimeter, sometimes with the raobf tool. When I find the speed, I usually use the ujagd to time the target, then I'll find the speed using the raobf tool. Ive found that I'll usually get a speed with a decimal, like 5.6 knots, and I've tried to both round up and round down to the nearest knot before entering it into the tdc dial.

Ive even entered the actual number with the UN rounded decimal into the xo dialog box, but it doesn't seem to make a big difference. Usually I'll try to wait for lower gyro angles to shoot, but again, it doesn't make much difference with the out come. Anyone have any ideas?

Or better yet, if you guys only use periscope tools, let me know what your targeting process is so I can try to see where I'm going wrong, as I don't want, or like to use the map to get targeting info.


Thanks guys!
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Old 03-20-21, 06:59 AM   #2
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You are definitely on the right track it sounds like. Minimizing gyro angle is very good practice, because it makes range nearly irrelevant to the solution, so keep doing that as you then don’t even need to do precise range measurements - eyeballing is enough. No stadimeter either on the Standsehrohr attack scope in real life.

My playstyle is no rec manual, as the real guys never had the reliance on manuals like we have them for getting target data - books like Gröner or Weyer were used normally only to identify the ship for purposes of delivering an accurate tonnage estimate. The primary data gathering methods used by the Germans placed no reliance on identification in order to get data. I’ll walk you through how they typically did it, and how it can be done in game.

Overarching rule is get close. Talking under 1000 m. At this range, at a perpendicular track angle, you are allowed up to a knot of speed error, and 10° of AOB error, so take advantage of that.

“Ausdampfen”:
This was probably the most prevalent method of gathering data, getting the most mention in KTBs and also specifically mentioned in the commander’s handbook. I demonstrate this in the video below, but basically what you are doing is adjusting your own course and speed until it appears the bearing no longer changes, and the range no longer changes. You do this by orienting yourself on the target at maximum range, to where you can just see the tips of the mast or the funnel, which gives you a reference point as to range. No need to measure a value, you just know whether it’s getting further or closer, and of course you can see the bearing change. So you tweak your course and speed over about 15 minutes, until it appears the target is “stationary”. Your course and speed are his. Then it’s just a matter of using a calculator, or an attack disc to figure out what the AOB is from course and bearing when you are ready to shoot. Same goes for the below procedure. Incidentally, this was also the primary method used at night.

“Koppeln” (Plotting):
Also very prevalent method, being mentioned in the handbook, and the KTBs. Now, U-boats had no means to measure range on the surface, and so they used the mast tips as a reference, similar to the above procedure, but assigning a range to what they are seeing. With experience you can do this in the game as well, using your binoculars, if you see a target with just a mast showing, it’s about 16 km. So every five minutes, you measure the bearing and estimate the range. Over a half hour or so you can develop a pretty good idea of the target’s course and speed. And you can use Ausdampfen then to refine it if you like. It’s best to use a combination of methods anyway.

“Schätzung” (Estimation):
Also quite common. If there was no time to do the above procedures, this is what they fell back on. Angle on bow was estimated by eye, and speed was typically estimated by the fixed wire method that you are doing also, measuring the time it takes the target to cross the wire. Now, they never quite were sure what the real target length was, but they could estimate it based on clues about the ship, and, since they got very close in to shoot typically, that mitigated errors. Other clues are the bow and stern wake. When using pure estimation, it’s also a very good idea to wait until the AOB appears to be 90 before you shoot. So not a fast 90, at which you are shooting at an AOB slightly less than 90, what I mean is wait until AOB is 90 before you pull the trigger. This was the recommendation historically, because 90 is very easy to see, and it is a good confirmation that the AOB is correct right at the time of the shot.

I won’t cover the approach in detail, because you seem to be able to position yourself well already for the shot. The only other recommendation I would make here is to overtake the target until AOB 0. They typically didn’t dive for a day approach until they reached a point exactly in front of the target. This provides the most flexibility in case the target changes course, and it also delivers a confirmation of the target’s course, because zero AOB is easy to recognize and instantly gives you the target’s actual track. In real life, zigzagging was typical, and so they would dive on the base course, the average course.

As long as your data is correct, and your TDC is set up correctly, there should be no reason why you miss. The above procedures are easy to perform and free you from reliance on any periscope tools or the manual. They take time, but they are done on the surface, with the exception of estimation, so that gives you time to perform them and refine them. Speed can definitely be between knot values. Historically they rounded to the nearest half a knot, so I would suggest doing the same. Also, make sure your tubes are flooded prior to shooting, as that will cause a delay if you don’t remember to do that.

Here is a video of me doing all of the above, in an entire engagement. I think I don’t do the fixed wire, but you are comfortable with that already.. This includes TDC setup and sinking the target as well.

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Old 03-20-21, 09:13 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by derstosstrupp View Post
You are definitely on the right track it sounds like. Minimizing gyro angle is very good practice, because it makes rangle nearly irrelevant to the solution, so keep doing that as you then don’t even need to do precise range measurements - eyeballing is enough. No stadimeter either on the Standsehrohr attack scope in real life.

My playstyle is no rec manual, as the real guys never had the reliance on manuals like we have them for getting target data - books like Gröner or Weyer were used normally only to identify the ship for purposes of delivering an accurate tonnage estimate. The primary data gathering methods used by the Germans placed no reliance on identification in order to get data. I’ll walk you through how they typically did it, and how it can be done in game.

Overarching rule is get close. Talking under 1000 m. At this range, at a perpendicular track angle, you are allowed up to a knot of speed error, and 10° of AOB error, so take advantage of that.

“Ausdampfen”:
This was probably the most prevalent method of gathering data, getting the most mention in KTBs and also specifically mentioned in the commander’s handbook. I demonstrate this in the video below, but basically what you are doing is adjusting your own course and speed until it appears the bearing no longer changes, and the range no longer changes. You do this by orienting yourself on the target at maximum range, to where you can just see the tips of the mast or the funnel, which gives you a reference point as to range. No need to measure a value, you just know whether it’s getting further or closer, and of course you can see the bearing change. So you tweak your course and speed over about 15 minutes, until it appears the target is “stationary”. Your course and speed are his. Then it’s just a matter of using a calculator, or an attack disc to figure out what the AOB is from course and bearing when you are ready to shoot. Same goes for the below procedure. Incidentally, this was also the primary method used at night.

“Koppeln” (Plotting):
Also very prevalent method, being mentioned in the handbook, and the KTBs. Now, U-boats had no means to measure range on the surface, and so they used the mast tips as a reference, similar to the above procedure, but assigning a range to what they are seeing. With experience you can do this in the game as well, using your binoculars, if you see a target with just a mast showing, it’s about 16 km. So every five minutes, you measure the bearing and estimate the range. Over a half hour or so you can develop a pretty good idea of the target’s course and speed. And you can use Ausdampfen then to refine it if you like. It’s best to use a combination of methods anyway.

“Schätzung” (Estimation):
Also quite common. If there was no time to do the above procedures, this is what they fell back on. Angle on bow was estimated by eye, and speed was typically estimated by the fixed wire method that you are doing also, measuring the time it takes the target to cross the wire. Now, they never quite were sure what the real target length was, but they could estimate it based on clues about the ship, and, since they got very close in to shoot typically, that mitigated errors. Other clues are the bow and stern wake. When using pure estimation, it’s also a very good idea to wait until the AOB appears to be 90 before you shoot. So not a fast 90, at which you are shooting at an AOB slightly less than 90, what I mean is wait until AOB is 90 before you pull the trigger. This was the recommendation historically, because 90 is very easy to see, and it is a good confirmation that the AOB is correct right at the time of the shot.

I won’t cover the approach in detail, because you seem to be able to position yourself well already for the shot. The only other recommendation I would make here is to overtake the target until AOB 0. They typically didn’t dive for a day approach until they reached a point exactly in front of the target. This provides the most flexibility in case the target changes course, and it also delivers a confirmation of the target’s course, because zero AOB is easy to recognize and instantly gives you the target’s actual track. In real life, zigzagging was typical, and so they would dive on the base course, the average course.

As long as your data is correct, and your TDC is set up correctly, there should be no reason why you miss. The above procedures are easy to perform and free you from reliance on any periscope tools or the manual. They take time, but they are done on the surface, with the exception of estimation, so that gives you time to perform them and refine them. Speed can definitely be between knot values. Historically they rounded to the nearest half a knot, so I would suggest doing the same. Also, make sure your tubes are flooded prior to shooting, as that will cause a delay if you don’t remember to do that.

Here is a video of me doing all of the above, in an entire engagement. I think I don’t do the fixed wire, but you are comfortable with that already.. This includes TDC setup and sinking the target as well.

That is beyond awesome! Thanks for taking the time, I'll check out the video tomorrow once I'm off work!
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Old 03-20-21, 04:25 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by derstosstrupp View Post
As long as your data is correct, and your TDC is set up correctly, there should be no reason why you miss. The above procedures are easy to perform and free you from reliance on any periscope tools or the manual. They take time, but they are done on the surface, with the exception of estimation, so that gives you time to perform them and refine them. Speed can definitely be between knot values. Historically they rounded to the nearest half a knot, so I would suggest doing the same. Also, make sure your tubes are flooded prior to shooting, as that will cause a delay if you don’t remember to do that.

Here is a video of me doing all of the above, in an entire engagement. I think I don’t do the fixed wire, but you are comfortable with that already.. This includes TDC setup and sinking the target as well.


Ive more question for ya, when I find target speed with the ujagd and the raobf, I'm usually doing 1-2 knots. Would that make a large enough difference that my torps would undershoot the target at a range of 3000m ish? Maybe my issue is I need to make sure I'm stopped completely.
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Old 03-20-21, 04:55 PM   #5
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Ive more question for ya, when I find target speed with the ujagd and the raobf, I'm usually doing 1-2 knots. Would that make a large enough difference that my torps would undershoot the target at a range of 3000m ish? Maybe my issue is I need to make sure I'm stopped completely.
For fixed wire, you either need to be stopped, or pointed at the target, so that your own movement doesn’t affect the measurement.

3000 m is way too far. At that range you are allowed almost no error in speed, and same for AOB. This is because the angular target is smaller, making a small error in your gyro angle matter much more. Best practice is under 1000. Dönitz trained his men for 600 m.
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Old 03-20-21, 05:05 PM   #6
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For fixed wire, you either need to be stopped, or pointed at the target, so that your own movement doesn’t affect the measurement.

3000 m is way too far. At that range you are allowed almost no error in speed, and same for AOB. This is because the angular target is smaller, making a small error in your gyro angle matter much more. Best practice is under 1000. Dönitz trained his men for 600 m.
Yeah that makes sense. Plus if I'm taking his speed while moving, it would reduce the targets relative velocity compared to me, so that explains it I think. Also, thank you for your YouTube channel, it's an awesome resource that I've used for a while now. Seriously, it's much appreciated!
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Old 03-20-21, 06:20 PM   #7
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Yeah that makes sense. Plus if I'm taking his speed while moving, it would reduce the targets relative velocity compared to me, so that explains it I think. Also, thank you for your YouTube channel, it's an awesome resource that I've used for a while now. Seriously, it's much appreciated!
You are very welcome, always happy to help! And yes, you are spot on there.
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Old 03-21-21, 09:12 AM   #8
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I do it in my Head (US Navy Taught)

1-The Fluckey/OKane/Morton Method..Discover Merchants-Put them at 090Rel to get ahead, constantly adjusting course to keep them @090 Rel. If Theres an escort on the Flank I keep him @ 100Rel

2-When the Merchant Column closest to the flanking escort has a zero angle on the Bow, slow, dive and put that merchant column at 090 rel and now slow speed dive to PD, silent running start ranging and Track the closing rate, this will give you @ speed.

3-Pick your targets from the 2nd or third row. You want Targets with a Narrow AOB-@25-35 as this will put you @ 1500meters off their Track. Adjust speed (never stopping) to keep AOB @ 20-25deg, keep ranging, checking speed.

4-When @10-20 REL Keep the scope fixed and shoot 2-3 torpedos. If its a Long ship I put 3: 1 First Mast, 2-MOT, 3 aft mast. Almost a Guaranteed Kill.

5-Dont gawk, swing the scope aft, and there should be one of the two out column ships crossing for a stern shot...Check AOB, crosshair on Bow(Dont move it) and LOS tube V MOT.

Or try something else.
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Old 03-21-21, 12:03 PM   #9
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- look at the smoke/bow wave for speed. Sure, takes a little (not much) experience but its not difficult and is reliable.
- plot the targets course.
- get 90 degrees to that course and sink ships.

It really is that simple.
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Old 03-27-21, 09:04 AM   #10
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I do it in my Head (US Navy Taught)

1-The Fluckey/OKane/Morton Method..Discover Merchants-Put them at 090Rel to get ahead, constantly adjusting course to keep them @090 Rel. If Theres an escort on the Flank I keep him @ 100Rel

2-When the Merchant Column closest to the flanking escort has a zero angle on the Bow, slow, dive and put that merchant column at 090 rel and now slow speed dive to PD, silent running start ranging and Track the closing rate, this will give you @ speed.

3-Pick your targets from the 2nd or third row. You want Targets with a Narrow AOB-@25-35 as this will put you @ 1500meters off their Track. Adjust speed (never stopping) to keep AOB @ 20-25deg, keep ranging, checking speed.

4-When @10-20 REL Keep the scope fixed and shoot 2-3 torpedos. If its a Long ship I put 3: 1 First Mast, 2-MOT, 3 aft mast. Almost a Guaranteed Kill.

5-Dont gawk, swing the scope aft, and there should be one of the two out column ships crossing for a stern shot...Check AOB, crosshair on Bow(Dont move it) and LOS tube V MOT.

Or try something else.
I'm curious as to seeing a video of this method - specifically keeping them @20-25 AOB. Normally if I'm playing as the bad guys in a U-boat, I'll actually use the TDC since the German version is so much easier to use reliably.

The US TDC is much harder to use because if I am aiming to fire at a 0 degree relative breathing I usually miss - the Dick O'Kane method works better for me.
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Old 03-27-21, 12:29 PM   #11
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I'm curious as to seeing a video of this method - specifically keeping them @20-25 AOB. Normally if I'm playing as the bad guys in a U-boat, I'll actually use the TDC since the German version is so much easier to use reliably.

The US TDC is much harder to use because if I am aiming to fire at a 0 degree relative breathing I usually miss - the Dick O'Kane method works better for me.
I tried to keep my post simple and accurate but missed the mark, sorry.

I forgot to say once target range is @1500 yards or meters your position and target track are now set to give you a CPA (closest point of Approach) if target AOB is 25deg. Its at this range and won I slow/crawl and allow the target to draw across my line of sight.

Sorry for missing that crucial step.

Its my observation the US TDC has no limits for shooting. It also keeps tracking which greatly assists in refining the firing solution. The German simply generates a static gyro angle, which works but doesn't track the target like the TDC. Both have a fan club, to each his own ))
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Old 03-27-21, 01:49 PM   #12
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I tried to keep my post simple and accurate but missed the mark, sorry.

I forgot to say once target range is @1500 yards or meters your position and target track are now set to give you a CPA (closest point of Approach) if target AOB is 25deg. Its at this range and won I slow/crawl and allow the target to draw across my line of sight.

Sorry for missing that crucial step.

Its my observation the US TDC has no limits for shooting. It also keeps tracking which greatly assists in refining the firing solution. The German simply generates a static gyro angle, which works but doesn't track the target like the TDC. Both have a fan club, to each his own ))
Ah, ok. Now this makes sense. Thanks!

Agree the US TDC is more capable - you just have to feed it a lot more data and a lot more often. For the US boats, a dick O'Kane method with a torpedo lead angle vs target speed table allows me to just ignore the tdc completely. Speed 0, aob 0, brg 0 and never mess with it at all. Whatever angle my approach, I look up in the table, rotate the scope to that lead angle for that target speed and torpedo speed and fire as various bits cross the wire.

For a u-boat, I find that two observations plotted at 3:15 apart at around 4-6000m away gives me more than enough info for a good solution in the TDC.
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Old 03-27-21, 01:55 PM   #13
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I tried to keep my post simple and accurate but missed the mark, sorry.

I forgot to say once target range is @1500 yards or meters your position and target track are now set to give you a CPA (closest point of Approach) if target AOB is 25deg. Its at this range and won I slow/crawl and allow the target to draw across my line of sight.

Sorry for missing that crucial step.

Its my observation the US TDC has no limits for shooting. It also keeps tracking which greatly assists in refining the firing solution. The German simply generates a static gyro angle, which works but doesn't track the target like the TDC. Both have a fan club, to each his own ))
So there are some common misunderstandings about what the German TDC could do. And unfortunately the SH series doesn’t get the German one quite right. It does however not force you into a static gyro, even SH series gets that right.

The German computer indeed did not have a position keeper, but what it could do, when told to, was update the AOB in the computer for every degree of bearing change, which is what the SH series gets right. This was called “Lage laufend”. It would also update the gyro angle continuously based on this as well. What the SH series does not get right is, on the most common model of German TDC during the war, the model S3, it had connectivity to the gyrocompass, and could take your own course changes into account as well. What that meant was, once the switch for this function was switched on, the U-boat could change course at will, and as long as the optics were kept on target, the target AOB would be correct. After all, it’s all just angles. The range dial really only was there to introduce the correct parallax correction on the Gyro angle. This of course only really matters when the gyro angle is greater than 20° or so, especially at close ranges. Range only matters because of the lateral separation of tubes and optics - if you shot torpedoes literally out of the lens of the optics, there would be no range dial on the computer.

Major disadvantage of the American computer compared to the German one, was the lack of direct connectivity between optics and computer. The American system required a bearing update to be introduced by hand, whereas the German computer received bearings continuously from the optics. The implication here, and the real advantage of the German one, was that fire could be shifted rapidly between targets, and the bearing would not need to be updated by hand for the subsequent target. AOB of course updated automatically with the bearing shift as well (“Lage laufend”).

Position keeper was an incredible tool to refine the solution, but when it came time to actually shoot, in practice, the Germans simply just kept their gyro angle low, making range irrelevant. And Lockwood stressed this practice anyway to his American skippers, so really at the end of the day the biggest value of the American computer was the ability to refine the data all the way up to the shot (by comparing observed bearing/range with generated). At the point of the shot, the Germans had the clear advantage, especially when engaging multiple subsequent targets in a convoy.
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Old 03-27-21, 03:40 PM   #14
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So there are some common misunderstandings about what the German TDC could do. And unfortunately the SH series doesn’t get the German one quite right. It does however not force you into a static gyro, even SH series gets that right.

The German computer indeed did not have a position keeper, but what it could do, when told to, was update the AOB in the computer for every degree of bearing change, which is what the SH series gets right. This was called “Lage laufend”. It would also update the gyro angle continuously based on this as well. What the SH series does not get right is, on the most common model of German TDC during the war, the model S3, it had connectivity to the gyrocompass, and could take your own course changes into account as well. What that meant was, once the switch for this function was switched on, the U-boat could change course at will, and as long as the optics were kept on target, the target AOB would be correct. After all, it’s all just angles. The range dial really only was there to introduce the correct parallax correction on the Gyro angle. This of course only really matters when the gyro angle is greater than 20° or so, especially at close ranges. Range only matters because of the lateral separation of tubes and optics - if you shot torpedoes literally out of the lens of the optics, there would be no range dial on the computer.

Major disadvantage of the American computer compared to the German one, was the lack of direct connectivity between optics and computer. The American system required a bearing update to be introduced by hand, whereas the German computer received bearings continuously from the optics. The implication here, and the real advantage of the German one, was that fire could be shifted rapidly between targets, and the bearing would not need to be updated by hand for the subsequent target. AOB of course updated automatically with the bearing shift as well (“Lage laufend”).

Position keeper was an incredible tool to refine the solution, but when it came time to actually shoot, in practice, the Germans simply just kept their gyro angle low, making range irrelevant. And Lockwood stressed this practice anyway to his American skippers, so really at the end of the day the biggest value of the American computer was the ability to refine the data all the way up to the shot (by comparing observed bearing/range with generated). At the point of the shot, the Germans had the clear advantage, especially when engaging multiple subsequent targets in a convoy.
Exactly ! If you think about it, both systems were designed for the type of action each countries subs were meant for.
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Old 03-27-21, 03:44 PM   #15
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Thanks John that’s a very good point actually. I’m fascinated by the American system as well, it was very scientific, using crosschecks. That TDC is why I go back to SH4 from time to time, because it’s just so much fun refining the data with it.
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