UK Politics Thread

[Jimbuna]

[Jimbuna]

Deal is done...Press conference set for 15:00 GMT

Here is the government's statement: "Everything that the British public was promised during the 2016 referendum and in the general election last year is delivered by this deal."

"We have taken back control of our money, borders, laws, trade and our fishing waters

"The deal is fantastic news for families and businesses in every part of the UK.

"We have signed the first free trade agreement based on zero tariffs and zero quotas that has ever been achieved with the EU.

"The deal is the biggest bilateral trade deal signed by either side, covering trade worth £668bn in 2019.

"The deal also guarantees that we are no longer in the lunar pull of the EU, we are not bound by EU rules, there is no role for the European Court of Justice and all of our key red lines about returning sovereignty have been achieved.

"It means that we will have full political and economic independence on 1st January 2021."

"A points-based immigration system will put us in full control of who enters the UK and free movement will end.

"We have delivered this great deal for the entire United Kingdom in record time, and under extremely challenging conditions, which protects the integrity of our internal market and Northern Ireland’s place within it.

"We have got Brexit done and we can now take full advantage of the fantastic opportunities available to us as an independent trading nation, striking trade deals with other partners around the world."

[Skybird]

You could put it in polite wishy-washy like the author in this article.

https://translate.google.com/transla.../26748636.html

Or you speak out the obvious truth plain and simple: Brexit got defeated, the UK wanted to jump like a tiger, but landed like a bedside carpet. It will still be bound by EU rules, but have no more say on forming them. On ly exception: the financial sector in the city of London.

Johnson pissed against the wind. Now the Union Jack has a fourth colour in it.

Victor in all this: the EU. Awful, instead of delivering it a blow, it has been strengthend. In the future it will be even more difficult to stop its accumulation of powers.

[Moonlight]

^ Boris has capitulated from what I've heard today, and the EU have given him a good rodgering over the negotiating table for all the trouble he's caused them over the last few years just to rub his nose in it.
All the minute details will come out over the next few weeks and a lot of people might not be happy about the sell out deal he's gone and done, put a flak vest on Bozo I think you might need one.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You could put it in polite wishy-washy like the author in this article.

https://translate.google.com/transla.../26748636.html

Or you speak out the obvious truth plain and simple: Brexit got defeated, the UK wanted to jump like a tiger, but landed like a bedside carpet. It will still be bound by EU rules, but have no more say on forming them. On ly exception: the financial sector in the city of London.

Johnson pissed against the wind. Now the Union Jack has a fourth colour in it.

Victor in all this: the EU. Awful, instead of delivering it a blow, it has been strengthend. In the future it will be even more difficult to stop its accumulation of powers.

I'm not so sure the above is entirely correct, especially if you read the government statement above your post.

The devil will obviously be in the detail so I'm going to wait and sift through the details as they are announced in the coming weeks.

[Jimbuna]

[MGR1]

From initial reports it seems reasonable but, as Jim wrote, the devil will be in the details.

Although from a Scottish perspective one of the little devils has already appeared:

Have fish quotas had their chips?

At least one item has been left out of the deal, and deliberately so. Seed potatoes are not included, while "ware" potatoes are. Ware potatoes are the ones consumers buy and boil, or roasted with other trimmings with the Christmas turkey. Seed potatoes are sold to farmers in warmer climes, where yield on potatoes is affected by year-round bugs and disease.

With its colder, wet climate, Scotland gives potatoes a disease-free start in life, and those seed potatoes are exported to Mediterranean countries, to replenish perpetually depleting production. North Africa has the biggest customers, while 20,000 tonnes - around a fifth of the UK's total exports - have gone to the European Union.

The reason given, in a letter to the agriculture sector seen by the BBC, is that the UK has not complied with the EU's demands on "dynamic alignment".

Why is this significant? Voila:

So when it sought a product that would put pressure on the UK government, it alighted on one that is grown mostly in the counties of Perthshire, Angus, Aberdeenshire and Moray. What do they have in common politically? They are where you're most likely to find Scottish Tories.

Put crudely the EU are going to use the spectre of Scottish Independence as a stick to beat the UK Government with over trade.

Mike.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I'm not so sure the above is entirely correct, especially if you read the government statement above your post.

What do you expect from a government to hear? "We bogged down and had to give ground, we must still obey their basic rules on labour, minimum taxes for the industry, state subsidies and environmental laws, and we must comply with their standards, while we will not have a word on formulating these in the future, and when they make them being tighter we have to obey, we must give them way more access to our national waters than we promised you we would allow"...?

No, that of course is not what they tell you. Instead they tell you a success story. And like Boris painted the future in brightest colours over the past four years, he again paints the future being bright and colourful now, two thumbs up.

But in the end, netto, all in all the UK lost more than you gained as far as your relation with the eU is concerned. You still sit with many basic obligations, while havign no rights to influence these anymore.

Macron says he is satisfied, and that Europe's strategy paid off. This alone should alarm you. There was no way possible to have an agreement that fulfills most of the UK's claims and conditions that at the same time would please the French.

Fact is the UK got defeated in fisheries, on the level playing field, border regime at Gibraltar. You got a draw on the question how to solve disputes in trade, by calling up an arbitral tribunal (how that works has not been said so far, so there might be new disputes or even hooks and traps in the fineprint).

All the time you have no more word on future ecological and economic regulations on labour, production, trade. But you must obey these rules, althoiugh they are not made by you. Seen this way, Farrage is right: you got yourself another, much more disadvantageous EU membership treaty.



Enjoy "sovereignty", Johnson style. He did what he always did: leading you astray, posing as a victor. But he is a blender, not a victor. His body height should be reduced by one head length.

[Jimbuna]

For me the most important things were to rid us of the ECJ, tariff-free trade and a return to controlling our own borders but give it a year or so to see how everything pans out after the dust has settled.

[skidman]

Funny how the deal is discussed in terms of winning and losing.

From an economical perspective both sides are losers. Especially when looking at the services sector the deal is rather spongy and open to interpretation. I'm still expecting some of the city boys to move to Belfast.

Regarding political culture and dignity the UK has delivered an outstanding example of how a country can go to the dogs in just a few years time. When talking to relatives, friends, colleagues and customers in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and France about Brexit (Starting with the lies the leave campaign was made of, the embarrassing sessions in the HoC, to BoJo's disgusting dodges) we almost never can agree to which extent the UK will suffer or benefit from leaving the EU, but we all agree the UK has lost reputation to a great extent.

A side note: BoJo has announced yesterday the UK will not longer take part in the Erasmus program for student exchange, because it is "too expensive". We see: Brexit is a poisoned gift for the older generations who erroneously believe sovereignty will make future decisions somehow easier/better and a catastrophe for the younger.

[Skybird]

In 2017 twice as many foreign students went to British universities than British students went to contientla univeisties. For British students, in net copmparison visiting British universities was more expensive thjan for foegn students to visit the same Birtish universities within the Ertasmus program. This calculates bad for the Briotish side, therefore, so it is understandable that they end it. After all, it is no European or foireng, but British univerisites. Europeans can still visit, but for the samer costs as British students.

The eu could pay compensation for European students in Britain. But already said that it will not do that. And in all seriousness - why should it in the first? If I want to study in another country - why should somebody else pay for me? I have to make sure I can pay for myself - or stay in my own country where I pay taxes.

So basically you are saying that you criticise the Birtish for no longer paying the difference for Europoean students, compared to British students.

I recall that Austria did something comparable. After years of many underqualified Germans fled to Austrian universities and "flooded" them ("Deutschenschwemme"), the Austrians have limited access for Germans to the most demanded Austrian universities. Since the education was and is in principle free in Switzerland and Austria, the more than quadrupling numbers of NC-fleeing Germans in the past 15-20 years at Austrian univeristies was a problem in so far as these Germans did not stay in Austria to work there and use their degrees for working in Austria (that way feeding tzhe costs of their acadmeic training in Austria), but returned to Germany after university. Austria had all the cost, but no profits from this.

Erasmus is a program that targets culktural desires and goals, but eocniomically it makes little sense, esoeciaoyal for tzhois eunioversities that are in hgihg demand, and thei histing nations: more costs than benefits. Economically it makes little sense - and somebody has to pay the bills. Why should the tax payer in one nation pay for the costs caused by students from another nation?

[Catfish]

I would not connect the visiting of british (english? UK? where do you get those numbers.. Kopp Verlag?) students with german or UK students.
First there are of course more german/EU students than UK students just from the population of all those countries (27:1), 2nd there are not so much english students, numbers have declined in the last years, but now are going up again in 2020. Higher education must be a real threat for the brexiters.

Just a year ago:
"Boris Johnson says the Erasmus scheme isn't under threat. Do you trust him?" Better not as we see.
https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...-you-trust-him

In the 1980ies we had a lot of english students in Göttingen, an often heard comment was that no one imagined how much better studying quality and general scientific background and discussions were in Germany, compared to hearsay in England. We were all young and had not much experience, of course.
I was in Cambridge for a short time, and while preciseness and spirit of science were on par, contact to professors and professional discussions were lacking a lot. It is much more "verschult", did no find an english term for this. There was also a bit of arrogance and distancy, never outspoken of course, all very polite, traditional, and cold.
I was not in Oxford for studies, but i guess not much people would be able to study there without financial help, at least not until they at least made their pre-doc exams and already had made themselves a name. Certain universities of course like to embellish themselves with "established" names, not only in England.
A friend of mine prefrred to go to Madrid/Spain instead of the UK via ERASMUS, but of course this all was a long time ago and only personal experience.

Just one more comment: Studying in England was and is costly, it is not anywhere "free" as we are used to here. It is or was also a lot about international understanding and get to know each other's nationality and points of view better, and while i bet the young still want it and are interested, a minority of older conservatives being in power has spoilt it for them. So this ship has now sailed, and i can only hope young people will give those a thorough bashing in the next years.

[Skybird]

The Uk has some of nthe best universitie sintb eh world, what cnanot be said abiztu for exmaple Germany, so why would you expect to see many Brits studying in Germany? Personal coaching by tutors is more more intense in the UK, than at German or Austrian universities.

The Swiss ETH Zurich and EPF Lausane are the only European uiniversitries breaking into the phalanx in this oist, as an exmaple.

The Uk has five entries.

Germany, France: none. And the Germans lose ground mpre and more.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_Wor...rsity_Rankings

Not much different here:

https://www.timeshighereducation.com...asc/cols/stats

There is more reason to want to visit a university in the UK, then wanting to visit any in Germany. And the language is not even the problem, Engoish evrsus German or French. Its simply is the quality, reputation, and personal coaching by tutors.

Whether the immense costs, that now leave many finished candidates in high debts, are justified by themselves, is something different, but that is a different discussion (that we already had some years ago). Its too much buying just a title form a renowned adress.

[Catfish]

^ "QS world university rankings", ah. Who is in charge of this? This is what you read, but not how it is.
From my personal point of view, with admittedly not a whole study, it was worthwhile and interesting. But "better"?
And why is that all about Germany and England? The ERASMUS project is where the whole of Europe is partaking - without the whole of the UK now. ERASMUS+ is worldwide.
A real problem is of course that especially Germany adopted this ridiculous anglo-saxon bachelor and master system, a system designed to bring out the worst; but hey why should only they do things wrong?

edit just read about a "Turing scheme" being introduced by Johnson in exchange, a UK-kind of ERASMUS+ project. I hope that studying abroad will not be perceived as a "gross indecency".

[skidman]

I think you got a point here. From my experience as a junior researcher, not a student in the UK (Sheffield / Glasgow) I'd say the Anglo-Saxon way to make the most of their findings is first and foremost a very clever way of publishing them. Especially the English have refined the techniques (some would use the term 'tricks') to enlarge their scientific footprint in order to make sure they are noticed.

For the undergraduate students the university provided a very controlled and protective environment with close contact to their tutors, that much is true (and at the same time somehow weird for a German who was used to organize and plan for himself and on his own). Once they graduated some found it really hard to address tasks like time management, or not sticking to concepts that had proven unsuccessful.

I wonder what a ranking of universities is good for. It is clearly beneficial for those that depend on fees paid by foreigners or donations granted by wealthy parents in order to situate their ill-bred children. I'd like to see a ranking of universities by the share of funding that comes from applied science / cooperations with industrial initiators. And just a side note: Ugur Sahin graduated in Cologne (QS ranking 183) and Özlem Türeci graduated in Homburg, Saarland (Didn't make the QS list).

Back to Erasmus: Spending money on education is always a good investment. Spending money on the education of foreigners is an even better investment, because they will later probably return the favor and make their talents and ambitions available to their hosts. Sure, some will return to their home countries, but even those will benefit from their international network and maybe later come back to do business in the former host country.

Last but not least: The idea behind Erasmus was to offer a chance for those who weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Maybe this is a strange concept for an old Etonian like Boris Johnson. Another own goal scored by BoJo, and this one was scored from a set piece.