[REL] Trigger Maru Overhauled Update BH

[Strykr]

I agree with Fitzcarraldo, A Convoy Training mission would be great.
I use the "Dick O'Kane Fleet Boat" mission, for practicing torpedo attacks and methods, and a night convoy scenario would be helpful for testing tactics.

Currently in campaign, I'll make a quick save when I detect a convoy, and replay it different ways.

I find I have pretty good luck with night attacks if I'm around 2000 yards.
Depending on weather conditions of course. I "Shoot and Scoot", so anything closer, and I dont have time to get out of visual range before torpedo impact.

The addition of Wolfpacks will be a GAMECHANGER.

Again, great job on your Modpack Bubblehead, and congrats on your Mod/Modder of the Year Award.

[Rhodes]

Thank you for the replies about deck awash.


The night convoy attack: I did some tests the closer I got with been detected was 1800 yards. This distance was in my second attack, port side.

My first attack I was starboard of the convoy, shoot the torpedos at 3500/3000 yards +/-. Did a u turn, shoot my aft tubes and escaped southeast.

Circumvent the convoy and decided to shoot my remaining torpedoes. This time I manage to get to 1800 yards above. Then one of the escorts that was returning to front of the ships, began to shoot flares, the ships began to zig zag.
I only hit with my type 14 torpedos, all my electric ones I missed... Still having a difficulty get the correct speed of the target.

But in the end, I got 4 ships, 2 tankers, so got the Navy Cross when got back to base!



I am also in favour of a night convoy attack mission for testing and do some crazy things to see the behaviour of the game.

[fitzcarraldo]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

I could do that after next patrol (currently on patrol), but are pretty easy to locate in the campaign. Fall 1943, per history, is when Japanese get their act together to some degree with convoys. The HI (Singapore-Imari, Imari-Singapore) convoys start up on regular basis. Convoy activity increases as time goes on.

June 1944-December 1944...Singapore-Japan routes,South China Sea and especially Luzon Straits is ideal place to find the large convoys can get inside the columns and take full advantage of night surface attack. In reality, this is when the tactic really came into its own. In the forthcoming update, will have AI wolfpack mates that will attack as well. Many convoys are "historic" convoys, which spawn just once...they arrive at historic date and times...for example Parche's legendary "Ramages Rampage" on 31 July 1944, can find that convoy, and many more. There are random convoys that spawn on a cycle as well in this time period. Traffic will slow down in October as the Singapore-Japan traffic shifts to the Indochina/China coast, but the TAMA and MATA( Tako-Manila, and Manila-Takao, Formosa) convoys continue running (as they did per history) until December 1944.

Many thanks. I´ll start a campaign in 43. Now I´m in 1942 in my current campaign.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Strykr

I agree with Fitzcarraldo, A Convoy Training mission would be great.
I use the "Dick O'Kane Fleet Boat" mission, for practicing torpedo attacks and methods, and a night convoy scenario would be helpful for testing tactics.

Currently in campaign, I'll make a quick save when I detect a convoy, and replay it different ways.

I find I have pretty good luck with night attacks if I'm around 2000 yards.
Depending on weather conditions of course. I "Shoot and Scoot", so anything closer, and I dont have time to get out of visual range before torpedo impact.

The addition of Wolfpacks will be a GAMECHANGER.

Again, great job on your Modpack Bubblehead, and congrats on your Mod/Modder of the Year Award.

Sounds like you are doing it correctly, good job. In reality typical firing range in night surface attack was 2000-2500 yards, so I tweaked things in the mod so could, in most cases, fired from 2000-2500 yards, make the turn away without always being spotted, and shredded by sniper like gunfire. Basically, your sub is difficult to visually spot on the surface, as subs actually were. Many variables involved, but sounds like have found the intended experience.

How I operate, to avoid showing broadsides and thus risking being spotted prior to torpedo impact, is after firing, I make sure have a little momentum and rudder already on about 5-10 degrees of direction intend to flee, so basically by time torpedoes hit, I am in the turn, then just before torpedo impact, I go ahead flank to push on through the turn and haul a**. Worst case (in most situations), I can dive if needed.


I agree, coordinated attack groups aka wolfpacks is a bit of a game changer. I am still tweaking some things but have some basics working pretty well in testing. Of course, due to limitations of game can't exactly operate and communicate as the actual packs did, but still brings the immersion and provides some assistance against the larger convoys etc.

Example of what I have so far.

Orders in July 1944 will state are to proceed to Luzon Straits as part of wolf pack (they will have, based on historical docs, the name of the pack, typically named as the pack CO, be it a Captain in the early packs of the most senior CO aboard one of the subs) . In some instances, will depart in company with other AI subs (as packs often did), some instances will just proceed to your assigned area.

For the coordinated attacks, the AI subs (which fire torpedoes) are placed to appear along the track of a specific convoy , appropriate radio traffic will appear ordering player sub to so and so position at x date and time. It is set up so in some cases player is first to attack, some cases, wll be second or third. This is typically how us wolfpacks operated, they took turns, attacked from opposite sides.

In the sim, plays out well when most escorts are distracted, trying to hunt/sink the other subs, player can move in and attack.

One I recently I had in testing is I was inside convoy of 18 ships in 1944, on the surface at night and set up on two large tankers in the center column(where the most important ships usually are located). Fired three MK 18 each, which for northbound tankers, is somewhat overkill since are most likely loaded with fuel, but never know, so fired three each. Anyways, they hit, two 10000 tankers in fireballs, fired stern tubes at a merchant in column astern, hit it. Now, was racing along, dodging spotlights and gunfire. Could see escorts rushing in towards me on radar and visually spotted their massive bow wakes due to speed. Of particular concern was a full fledged destroyer, they and most DE's have speed to overtake sub on surface, unlike most escorts.

Anyways a couple of minutes into the chase, a ship on the starboard exterior column blows up, could hear(gotta love EAX sound mod) and see the flash in the distance. The DD turned around to go after it, as did two other escorts, only one kept heading for my area. I spent a few minutes dodging other merchants spotlights and sporadic gunfire, the escort trying to locate me, but always behind, but finally seemed to gain a fix and was closing, occasionally firing his guns from 3000-4000 yards, one or two close splashes, but not too close. Then on the port side of convoy, boom another ship goes up, escorts head that way. I was near the rear of the convoy about to exit and a mid sized merchant presented easy set up for my last MK 18 in stern tubes( had more in reserve, but had fired other three, saved one in case needed it before had chance to reload) . Manned aft TBT, fired the torpedo from 2100 yards. Ship must have had ammo as cargo as it denigrated, which 4600 ton merchants typically don't do unless have volatile cargo. Of course this attracted a previously undetected escort , the "rear guard" but , but was able to pull away on surface after chase and dodging a few rounds.

I was in testing, so had the external and next previous cams on. I was abel to watch escorts counter attacks on the subs. Unfortunately, a oversight, omission, bug etc in SH 4 , likely because UBI was too lazy to really work in AI subs into SH 4, is other AI vessels see them, even when they are not visible above the surface. So the escorts get within range and "spot" them, they fire their guns first, instead of just dropping depth charges. However, they will get close enough and will drop depth charges. AI subs don't change depths, so there is no "going deep" to evade. I have them timed and set to hit their last waypoint after attacking, so they will delete on last waypoint, which simulates them going deep and running silent. This also makes daytime submerged pack attacks not really possible as they are spotted at some distance.

Surfaced US AI subs, I am on the fence to include them in attacks, because they have tendency to get into gunfights with escorts lol. Guess could remove their deck guns, but then looks silly. Still working that part out.


Totals for attack in testing.

My boat (GATO)- Two 10000 ton tankers, one 4500 ton merchant.

AI Sub #1 - One merchant (unknown tonnage)


AI sub#2 One merchant (unknown tonnage)


Now, these results are not typical, AI subs are usually not most accurate shots lol, be it enemy or friendly.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

Thank you for the replies about deck awash.


The night convoy attack: I did some tests the closer I got with been detected was 1800 yards. This distance was in my second attack, port side.

My first attack I was starboard of the convoy, shoot the torpedos at 3500/3000 yards +/-. Did a u turn, shoot my aft tubes and escaped southeast.

Circumvent the convoy and decided to shoot my remaining torpedoes. This time I manage to get to 1800 yards above. Then one of the escorts that was returning to front of the ships, began to shoot flares, the ships began to zig zag.
I only hit with my type 14 torpedos, all my electric ones I missed... Still having a difficulty get the correct speed of the target.

But in the end, I got 4 ships, 2 tankers, so got the Navy Cross when got back to base!



I am also in favour of a night convoy attack mission for testing and do some crazy things to see the behaviour of the game.

No problem.

Sounds like a solid attack, well done .

Sounds like speed was correct in TDC, thus the other hits. MK 18's can be more difficult to shoot, primarily due to low speed of 29 kts and shorter range of just 4000 yards. Key with MK 18 is fire them on a bearing so they always meet the target, never have to "chase it". Also, due to their lower speed, accurate bearing/AOB/ and speed, matter, as does point of aim.


Example: You're on the TBT and want to fired three MK 18 at target. Aim for middle of target, typically the stack, make sure to aim just ahead of the stack, if you aim at the stack, it will usually hit astern of the stack. Something I have noticed over time and primarily had to do with the low travel speed of MK 18, the brief delay between final firing bearing into TDC, gyros set and torpedo being launched.

Also, one reason need to get to 2000-2500 yards to fire MK 18 instead of 3500-3000, is 3500-3000 yards is a long ways for a slow torpedo to go after a moving target, and with its limited range, more prone to missing targets or if misses, less likely to find another by "accident", which is more common when shooting into the large convoys. This was one of my reasons for working to change the ability to pull off night surface attacks in TMO. Before the update, was pretty much impossible most of the time. In later part of war, MK 18 was most common torpedo US subs used, but because of the ranges had to fire at in later war, esp in TMO, it was impossible in many cases, especially on surface. Attacking submerged not always optional with all the shallow waters have to venture into in late 1944 and into 1945 just to find targets, need to get able to get within range.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by fitzcarraldo

Many thanks. I´ll start a campaign in 43. Now I´m in 1942 in my current campaign.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo

No problem. I am in June 1942 at moment, orders (new orders created for update) to patrol north-west of Midway. Worked to make all periods of the war interesting to operate in, but obviously late 1943-early 1945 are most interesting/fast paced times to patrol.

If you really want to test the night surface out in campaign, would start in June 1944 and hunt in the Luzon Straits, South China Sea areas as mentioned, likely to find the big convoys, can get inside the screen.


Fall 1943 see more convoys but not many of those type of convoys until 1944.

[Bubblehead1980]

How is everyone finding the new damage model when comes to depth charge attacks in TMO Update?

Type 95 and Type 2 depth charges?

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

How is everyone finding the new damage model when comes to depth charge attacks in TMO Update?

Type 95 and Type 2 depth charges?

I honestly forgot to change the depth charges and I am in December 1943.

With the type 95: before the night attack described above, I had a "nice" encounter with a Chidori class destroyer.

I show him my lovely derriére and shoot 4 torpedoes, and crash dive.

Went to the outside camera and saw that one was going to hit. "yeahhh, I am the greatest us sub commander of all time" and then the message: "Torpedo is a dud"! Why the admiral wants impact pistols...


So, to cut the story short, I had to go bellow 660 ft, sinking in silent running to escape. When doing the cat and mouse game, one charge did got to close and damage my engine compartment. Medium damage but manageable.

Possibly with the previous settings of the depth charges, that hit would had been fatal.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

I honestly forgot to change the depth charges and I am in December 1943.

With the type 95: before the night attack described above, I had a "nice" encounter with a Chidori class destroyer.

I show him my lovely derriére and shoot 4 torpedoes, and crash dive.

Went to the outside camera and saw that one was going to hit. "yeahhh, I am the greatest us sub commander of all time" and then the message: "Torpedo is a dud"! Why the admiral wants impact pistols...


So, to cut the story short, I had to go bellow 660 ft, sinking in silent running to escape. When doing the cat and mouse game, one charge did got to close and damage my engine compartment. Medium damage but manageable.

Possibly with the previous settings of the depth charges, that hit would had been fatal.

Nice. Damn. Still getting duds in December 1943? Or was that prior ? Dud problem is supposed to be solved on 25 September 1943. However, if are out at sea when the "switch" takes place, may noticed problem persists until next patrol.

660? holy crap lol I assume you were in a Balao Class and that is pushing it lol Yes, if had the Type 2 depth charge enabled, pretty good chance would have been fatal but not necessarily, depends on how close it was, if it compromised hull integrity. I am working on implementing it where ships begin to carry the new depth charges on their own (so do not have to enable the mods) and switch at appropriate dates (like the RSRD mod did) but time consuming process and ran into issues.) Being that deep even losing just a few percent of hull integrity to a close depth charge can cause hull collapse. Type2, with more explosive power does not have to be as close as Type 95 to cause such damage. Type 95 can still kill a sub, just not as likely.

Also, something I have come to realize in SH 4 does model, is charges are more effective at extreme depths (as were in reality) vs shallow depth. I've taken a depth charge at 125 feet and at 650 feet in Balao, landed exact same distance and spot. At 125 feet, does not do the damage same charge, same distance, some spot does at 650 ft. I tested this pretty exstenively and and 98% sure this is accurate.

In TMO update, charges are worth the same hitpoints, no wild variations (in default TMO, stock etc, hitpoint values of charges can range from 80-175, random factor, which is why the notorious an ahistorical "magic bullets" happened, that ended things when were not close enough to do so. Most subs hulls have 325-350 hitpoints, so get one at 175 with any kind of depth, probably going to cause hull collapse. Then the damage "spreads" throughout and would destroy key equipment, bullkheads etc. Default damage model annoyed me immensely lol, very gamey, which is why I changed it.

[Rhodes]

Prior, was the previous patrol, possibly September 1943.
Yes, I have the USS Balao. I went 610 and at silent running, 1 knot. The ship began to drop sloooowwwwlllyyyyy and i noticed the depth...

[Mad Mardigan]

On My end of things... haven't had the opportunity to really... stress test the 'Type 2's'... just have had the Type 95's, thus far, to date, only.

Even with those... haven't really had much... encounters getting those dropped about Me... considering I (& think this is owing to My style of play, based on U-boating... primarily, coupled with My general... methodology of attack mentality... attack, but make dang sure... to be able to boogie, if needs be... & safely. ) approach attacking from a bit of a distance, almost but not quite at the furthest distance the torps can be fired from.

2nd, is where is comes to shallow waters areas... (again, probably influenced by My U-boating about... ) I generally avoid shallows... something, that... I still find Myself, working to overcome yet... still being mindful of at least, being able to get to peri depth, with a bit of gap left to go 1/2 that... if needed.

Have to say... is fun... trying to remember to shift gears on the fly...

What I can say is,... the few, rare occurrences of having some, dropped about Me... they weren't golden, magic bullet's.... was able to shake the offender, dropping them... either stealthily or outright destroying them, making sure the coast was clear... surfacing & then... getting the flock outta Dodge.

Hope this, albeit... meager tidbit, helps...



M. M.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

Prior, was the previous patrol, possibly September 1943.
Yes, I have the USS Balao. I went 610 and at silent running, 1 knot. The ship began to drop sloooowwwwlllyyyyy and i noticed the depth...

Ah, figured it was prior.

lol Yes, something the devs screwed up with in SH 4, subs performance below 600 feet (actual things seem to get weird at 597) is horrid. Without excessive speed, boat will not maintain depth, will sink to crush depth and rarely will stay at depth set, notice is hit the A key to stop at 650, will still drift on to 670+ , unless have a absurd amount of speed. This of course, runs batteries down quickly, makes excessive noise (game does not simulate lack of cavitation at those depths, unfortunately) , which takes away one of the major advantages of the Balao, ability to go to such such depths. I've considered altering AI sensors so they are not as effective at those depth. Japanese sonar/sound gear, for most part was not that effective, but it may make it so easy that all a player has to do is go to a certain depth to get away.I notated during testing the various speeds required to maintain depth for Balao and Tench (only subs that can get beyond 600 ft) , Ill search my pc, should still have the spreadsheet, and will share it here or PM to you.

Interesting story from the war about a Balao at 650 ft , is that of the BILLFISH. November 1943 was in Makassar Strait, severe 12 hours depth charge attack pushed her to 650 feet. Captain "lost it" , went manic, was relieved and went to his cabin. The XO, a LT Rush, took command. Japanese kept on them, eventually realized they were leaking oil and japanese were using the oil trail to assist in tracking them, so they reversed course to confuse their pursuer. Of course, they still had to have some useful info from sonar and hydrophones to continue pursuit and come so close with depth charges. Another reason do not want to nerf the sensors when it comes to that depth.

Chief Electrician's Mate John D. Rendernick took action and led emergency repairs, which included using a hydraulic jack to reposition port main motor, which had been knocked off its foundation, also filled a leaking stern torpedo tube with grease.

They managed to get home and before port, Officers and the CO made a agreement, that if he resigned command and transferred out of submarines, they would not report his "episode" when under attack, saving him embarrassment, and the Captain did just that.

[Rhodes]

By they way, yesterday happened one thing, 2nd time after i return to SH4 with TMO update.

Was going to my second objective in patrol, near the Japonese coast, was preparing to surface for the night run and began to have report of damages.

A mine i thought, since I am near those areas. The damage report was bulkhead severely damage and batteries destroyed (bow compartment).

Battle stations and blow ballast, but the sub just become stop in time.

No up or down, no sinking, no compress air diminishing.

Game bug? When one of the batteries compartments are destroyed, the game assume no sub?

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

By they way, yesterday happened one thing, 2nd time after i return to SH4 with TMO update.

Was going to my second objective in patrol, near the Japonese coast, was preparing to surface for the night run and began to have report of damages.

A mine i thought, since I am near those areas. The damage report was bulkhead severely damage and batteries destroyed (bow compartment).

Battle stations and blow ballast, but the sub just become stop in time.

No up or down, no sinking, no compress air diminishing.

Game bug? When one of the batteries compartments are destroyed, the game assume no sub?

Where on the Japanese coast? Date/Time? Coordinates ?(if you have them) Area?

Yes, a bug in the sense that you took damage and your sub was actually destroyed, but game "half registered" it, if that makes sense. Happened to me before when I was depth charged in shallow waters in 1945, took a large pattern of depth charges, which two or three lucky ones exploded close. I thought I survived but had heavy damage, ordered repairs. DD's kept dropping in area but seemed to have left me alone After few minutes, noticed sub was not moving I went to external cam and could not see my sub under water. It was dark , almost dawn, so when daylight came, no sub, yet I could go inside sub. Hull damage was 38 percent. Escorts moved on eventually. No death screen though, I just had to considered myself sunk.

While rare, I believe this to be a unfortunate side effect of modding the damage model . I have had this happen in other mods that altered damage model as well. I have made some tweaks to the model in the upcoming version and have not had it happen in test, although it is rare in previous version as well. I just consider myself sunk when it happens and start a new career.

Also, if it was a reloaded savengame, I have noticed the damage system bugs happen more often with saved games. Not sure how or if anything can do to fix that. I have noticed modded SH 4 save games tend to have bugs, usually minor and not a big deal but can be annoying.

Far as cause of damage, most likely a mine. The mines were strengthened so one hit will destroy a submarine as it was quite unrealistic to survive a mine hit. Explosive power/hitpoints of the mines was raised to exceed the total hitpoints a sub can take and usually leads to 100 hull damage and screen of death. Sounds like your forward compartment hit them and the bug happened, where you were actually destroyed but game did not register it fully, so did not give you screen of death.


Another possibility, is a submerged AI submarine torpedoed you. I was recently hit by one for the first time. Night time on surface, no warning. Since you were submerged , I find it more likely to be a mine but if you were shallow enough, which I presume you were since about to surface, AI sub could have detected you.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Mad Mardigan

On My end of things... haven't had the opportunity to really... stress test the 'Type 2's'... just have had the Type 95's, thus far, to date, only.

Even with those... haven't really had much... encounters getting those dropped about Me... considering I (& think this is owing to My style of play, based on U-boating... primarily, coupled with My general... methodology of attack mentality... attack, but make dang sure... to be able to boogie, if needs be... & safely. ) approach attacking from a bit of a distance, almost but not quite at the furthest distance the torps can be fired from.

2nd, is where is comes to shallow waters areas... (again, probably influenced by My U-boating about... ) I generally avoid shallows... something, that... I still find Myself, working to overcome yet... still being mindful of at least, being able to get to peri depth, with a bit of gap left to go 1/2 that... if needed.

Have to say... is fun... trying to remember to shift gears on the fly...

What I can say is,... the few, rare occurrences of having some, dropped about Me... they weren't golden, magic bullet's.... was able to shake the offender, dropping them... either stealthily or outright destroying them, making sure the coast was clear... surfacing & then... getting the flock outta Dodge.

Hope this, albeit... meager tidbit, helps...



M. M.

Those Uboat habits die hard

Type 2 charges(IJN started using in late 1943) sink faster and pack a real punch. Can be quite a surprise when first encounter them.

If you get into later war, you will be forced to operate in shallows if want to sink anything. Late 1944 traffic shifts to coastal waters as it really did. Provides excellent opportunities for night surface attacks though. Sometimes have to just submerge as well . Decoys are available then and are helpful.