GER politics thread

[skidman]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

You're saying this as if this behavior is unjustified.
Remind me.
How many synagogues have to be searched by police units due to religious motivated terror attacks committed by jews?
How many rabbis do they arrest because they preach about killing unbelievers?
How many synagogues can be connected to being safe houses or recruitment centers for terrorists?

And how often do the examples above apply to mosques?

You missed my point completely, but Your reply is a good example of anti-muslim attitude in Germany (which was neglected by the big bird. He stated that Germany was antisemitic but pro islam. That is obviously nonsense on stilts).

So, how many mosques do we have in Germany? Thousands. And how many muslims? Millions. And how many can be considered islamists? A tiny fraction. Freedom of religion is a basic right guaranteed by our constitution. Do you want to change this?

Do you agree that exegeses and interpretations of religious foundations are subject to constant change? Have you heard about the new mosque founded in Berlin a few days ago, with a female imam, men and women praying together in one room and a liberal approach towards dos and don'ts? Islam can change and in many aspects it has to. But putting a label on muslims and pegging them as terrorists is simply stupid.

I can see that You and the big bird are taking muslims as scapegoats. Well, it seems that's the German way to do it. And yes, that is disgusting.

Originally Posted by skidman

You missed my point completely, but Your reply is a good example of anti-muslim attitude in Germany

I wish. Germany is not anti-islam enough, unfortunately.
And we can witness daily where this is leading, all over Europe, not just Germany.
But keep telling yourself that we're all equals and all want the same, and everything will be dandy as long as we talk to each other and dance our names in a circle of love, holding hands.

Go try that with a Muslim.
And mind my words: Muslim.
I'm not talking about "fashion Muslims", that don't live by the Quran, yet call themselves Muslim.
If you do not do as the Quran says, you're no Muslim.
The book leaves no room for interpretation or debate there. None at all.

I'm no fighter pilot just because I claim to be.
We are what we do, not what we say.

Originally Posted by skidman

So, how many mosques do we have in Germany? Thousands. And how many muslims? Millions. And how many can be considered islamists? A tiny fraction. Freedom of religion is a basic right guaranteed by our constitution. Do you want to change this?

Ahhh, here we go again, the myth about the tiny radical Muslim minority - the "Islam means peace!" pamphlets lying around at your workplace sure did their job.

And the problem with religious freedom is that Islam is not just some religion.
It is, in its core, a radical ideology seeking global domination, prosecution
and even death of those that either do not believe, or just want to leave Islam.

So go tell me about religious freedom again...

Originally Posted by skidman

Do you agree that exegeses and interpretations of religious foundations are subject to constant change? Have you heard about the new mosque founded in Berlin a few days ago, with a female imam, men and women praying together in one room and a liberal approach towards dos and don'ts? Islam can change and in many aspects it has to. But putting a label on muslims and pegging them as terrorists is simply stupid.

No, it is not stupid at all, it is simply what it is.
I said it before, but I'll say it again:

The Quran must not be questioned.
Mohammed must not be questioned.
Doing either, will end your life, by Sharia-law.

This ideology was created with a fail-safe protection mechanism, and that is one of the big problems. I heard about this new Mosque, and while I wish Islam could be reformed, it is simply impossible.
You cannot just take Islam, adjust it to your western standards, and call it a day. As soon as you change it, it isn't Islam anymore.
So call it what you wish, but that Mosque has nothing to do with Islam.
Unfortunately.

And let's see how long it takes until something happens either to this Mosque, or those responsible.

Originally Posted by skidman

I can see that You and the big bird are taking muslims as scapegoats. Well, it seems that's the German way to do it. And yes, that is disgusting.

Do you think talking about Skybird in such a derogatory way will give your "arguments" (claims based on emotion - nothing of value in the end) any weight?
It won't.
It should provoke the mods, though.


So, "scapegoats"?
Scapegoats for... what exactly?
Now I am very curious indeed, as this is quite an accusation.
You better have a solid explanation, backed with facts, I hope?

I'm listening.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I merkelized you. My opinion is without alternative. Mcgyver you out of this, if you can.

Ok so let's see, i only agree with some of your points, of course.

"Why the modern Germany again is so mercilessly collectively oriented, which makes German mentality extremely vulnerable for totalitarianism, enforced collectivism, willing to allow paternalistic infantilizing by a strong centralized nanny state, and in general time and again falls for a strong Führer (or VerFührerin)."

I prefer what you like to call "collectivism" to the totalitarism Germany obviously had before, and to what i see almost everyhere else in the world. Yes, democracy and allowing free speech makes a country vulnerable, however i still prefer this! Which is why i also agree not to entirely close the borders out of fear or Angst. I indeed think we are strong enough.
We have to be a "wehrhafte Demokratie". "Paternalistic infantilizing" my donkey, peope are too comfortable, the politicians just use what they see.
Blame it on yourself, not on those political uneducated mongrels. Why are you here like me, saving the world with writing in a forum few people read, instead of going into politics and spread the word.

"The text is an excerpt from the book "Mal eben kurz die Welt retten - Die Deutschen zwischen Größenwahn und Selbstverleugnung."
http://www.achgut.com/artikel/demokr...ssverstaendnis "

Jaja, ok, nice article but also just rhetorics. You know when we in our convention decided to introduce a debating society in our res. hall back then, the first proposal (done by me) had the theme "Why rhetorical speech and debating societies are bad for the character", and i of course won

Also nice: Junkcer's quote, being used all the time: "Wir beschließen etwas, stellen das dann in den Raum und warten einige Zeit ab, was passiert. Wenn es dann kein großes Geschrei gibt und keine Aufstände, weil die meisten gar nicht begreifen, was da beschlossen wurde, dann machen wir weiter – Schritt für Schritt, bis es kein Zurück mehr gibt.“

Oh yes, how can he dare to openly say what politicians and "leaders" do since millenia? He has at least the right ideas, of a certain protection of citizens vs. big companies, or for workers rights, or for humane labour time. The Unions are finished, so who shall do their job now?
You know what? If Churchill had said exactly that, it would be one of his most heroic and well-known quotes, against all odds, always seeing us through in blind stubborness. But that this Juncker says it, noooo the world will end, he is a dictator, blah. For the record I don't like both, from war lover to bureaucrat.

In no other country in the world there is such a strong club-mentality and do so many clubs and associations exist, like in Germany. In no other country (not even the Asian countries which are assoiacted with strong collectivistic mindsets so easily) you will find such a big share of the general population beign organised in clubs and associations.

No, this is no longer so. In our times less and less germans are organised in clubs or organisations. In fact there are way more clubs and associations in England, not that this is a partcularly bad idea. Myself I try to evade such though, be it here or in England.

And in no other country of the West you find the educqaiton sector and the media sector being so overwhelmingly infiltrated by left-leaning ideologists.

It is now à la mode to call all common sense and center media reporting "left", just because it is easier to read the simplistic worldview and populistic right-wing Sun, Bild, or Fox, or Breitbart hate fake news. I guess "American Thinker" (this name just of all lmao) is the top of this bovine scatology. Yes, all else is so "complicated", and you have to "think". Those right wing media express how i feel and serve my gut feeling, so why should i bother to actively think and make up my mind? Too much effort needed from my side!

One of those good right-wing questions was "why journalists tend to be leftist" or something in that vein. It may sound elitist, but up to recent times and the internet becoming so accessible by all, journalism was tied to more or less educated persons, who could at least read and write, and had some journalistic and historical background education, and maybe even some ethos.
Not now. Now every dombdonkey can climb a soapbox and create an internet "media presence", to spread his lunatic views, hate, and serve those "gut feelings". Can i have a "like" if you like dogs and Trump and the NRA?

But this does not make common sense "left", it is just a try to turn things upside down, to shake democratic foundations for a right-wing restoration. I think this is pretty easy to see, especially in the US, a.d. Trump I.

[...] Here it helps that Merkel has managed to render all political differentiations between parties pointless. Germany today in principle is a socialist one-party-state like the GDR was. The pluralism the state-sponsored and state-nursed left-leaning journalistic claquers stand ready to point at all too willingly, the severla parties there are in the Bundestag that give them food for their daily talk shows and witty comments in newspapers: are just deception, strawman, alibi. They mean nothing. The diversity is Potemkian diversity.

Apart from calling this "left", because it is simply lacking interest, comfortable numbness and a general disintest in politics, i agree. Merkel just claims all ideas for being hers and immediately incorporates them, so there can be no opposition. Schultz is really helpless; not that i think too high of him.

---On a sidenote, the German Lieutenant-Colonel from that story I linked to some days ago, two posts above, has filed charges against the German defence ministress, apparently for character assassination. Its the first time ever I think that a German defence minister or ministress gets sued by a high ranking German military officer.---

To accuse this officer is awful, i agree

Finally, Schultz has called the Bundestag for legalizing same-sex marriages, in a bit to get these clients' votes. Merkel immediately and without any scrupels withdrew from positions the CDU had held for decades, and allowed the vote to be individual (which, Big Mama, is just what the constitution says anyway, not only is there no constitutional basis for parties' claim and demand that politicians have to vote in accordance with party policy - the constitution even explicitly says that it cannot be like that at all: article 38, paragraph 1). Again, the only principle of Merkelianism has shown in her ruthless acting free of any moral values and ethical hindrances: the principle of that there never shall be principles allowed to come in her way, and that no principles shall ever be allowed to stand between her and power. Opportunism in its purest form.

100 percent agreement here.


Well long post, and no one will read it

[Skybird]

Catfish, it is a historic fact that the educational sector was conquered by the left ideologists since the 68er, and same is true for the field of journalism. When you switch on especially state propaganda TV and radio, you get just a brew of politically correct phrasing, opinion pieces pretending to be fact reporting, and Tagesthemen and Heute Journal moderators who openly admit that they take it upon them to protect the public from news that in their opinion could deliver a blow to the public consensus opinion climate that everybody has to to believe and that mirrors the Politikersprech and reality distortions of the parties. Even the daily Heute-Sendung has degenerated to a display of personal consternation and emotional sensitivities of the announcer. That is not just unprofessional, that is simply incapable and incompetent. The the quality of the "news" from these propaganda outlets - financed via mandatory taxes and so unavailable for any competition and quality control - show that.

I do not tell every time all the historic story of Why and How, yes. I refer to the political left and right simply to remain "communicatable". But the terms, historically, have meanings and are not as arbitrarily as you imply.

Conservatism is only as good as what it conserves.

Socialist thought owes its appeal to the young largely to its visionary character; the very courage to indulge in Utopian thought is in this respect a source of strength for socialism which traditional liberalism sadly lacks. Speculation about general principles provides an opportunity for the play of the imagination of those who are unencumbered by much knowledge of the facts of present-day life. Their ideas suffer from inherent contradictions, and any attempt to put them into practice must produce something utterly different from what they expect.

It is rarely remembered now that socialism in its beginnings was frankly authoritarian. It began quite openly as a reaction against the liberalism of the French Revolution. The French writers who laid its foundation had no doubt that their ideas could be put into practice only by a strong dictatorial government. The first of modern planners, Saint-Simon, predicted that those who did not obey his proposed planning boards would be 'treated as cattle'.

The argument for liberty is not an argument against organization, which is one of the most powerful tools human reason can employ, but an argument against all exclusive, privileged, monopolistic organization, against the use of coercion to prevent others from doing better. The principle that the end justifies the means is in individualist ethics regarded as the denial of all morals. In collectivist ethics it becomes necessarily the supreme rule.

F.A. Hayek

[ikalugin]

A spectre is haunting Europe—the spectre of communism.

[Catfish]

^ not really

It is more the Gespenst of Trump, terrorism, a right-wing shift, and Putin. Communism never existed, by any definition, and i guess it never will.

Originally Posted by Catfish

Well long post, and no one will read it

I did, and I liked it, mostly.
What's my price?!
GIB PREIS!

[Skybird]

The spectre is no spectre at all. ironically, never before in history has socialist thinking been blossoming so shamelessly and is enjoying itself so frankly, like today throughout Europe, since the end of the cold war, the "victory" of capitalism, the "defeat" of communism.

Meanwhile socialism remained to stay as impotent as ever to feed all the many billions, growing, that live, walk and crawl on this planet. The burden to deal with that is left to the "market" as the only creator of goods and items and food, defaming said market economy at the same time on the grounds of envy, and calling that envy "social justice". Socialism, as always, sits aside, only commands, and ruthlessly consumes the reserves.As long as reserves last. Planned reality is its only answer. As if reality, nature, truth ever have bowed to political ideology and ideologic dreamdancing! LOL

[Catfish]

^ So, capitalists are socialists. Or have become socialists. But only in Europe. But not in Switzerland, Poland, Romania. But in Germany.
Or no, all those workers are the poor greedy socialists that rob the rich good capitalists of their well-deserved wealth, and products. But where would the capitalists' wealth be if no one bought their products?
Too difficult, must read Breitbart for explanation. Or Ayn Rand.

[ikalugin]

The spectre is no spectre at all.

The spectre is that of communism, not socialism.

The fun times are still ahead.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

The spectre is that of communism, not socialism.

The fun times are still ahead.

"Socialism" is a way to say "communism" but hiding it in a more friendly word to not attract criticism. Socialism is the front and communism the rear of one and the same thing.

Like "social market economy" means planned economy while not calling it by its real name, so to dodge the counter-fire.

From the fact that people are very different it follows that, if we treat them equally, the result must be inequality in their actual position, and that the only way to place them in an equal position would be to treat them differently. Equality before the law and material equality are therefore not only different but are in conflict with each other; and we can achieve either one or the other, but not both at the same time.

Hayek. Brilliantly said.

[Skybird]

Black-dressed scum clashes with the police for the second night in a row, With riot events of today, so far 160 police officers have been injured. An unknown number of cars have been set ablaze, their owner mostly will have to pay for most of these damages (insurrances do not cover full or any costs of vandalism). Shop owners reported yesterday that "autonomous" activists blackmailed them for protection money.

Although they expected clashes and violence, police says it is shocked by the display of readiness to use even dangerous, life-threatening ammounts of violence. Night reports by the police called desperately for help, wording explicitly "danger for life and limb", and Hamburg has urgently sent requests for police reinforcements from all federal states, demanding that all police reserves across Germany shall be rushed to Hamburg ASAP.

I will never understand why these summits must be held, to me they are a waste of time and purely absolutistic shows of narcissism "Look how important we are", and I fail to see why the hell they do their best to make them as expensive as possible by not sending the delegations on some high sea cruising ship or aircraft carrier, but right into the centres of urban life. They know these summits are not populare with the populations (that also pay the price), and yet they impose their damn presence right on the citizens disliking them. Shows what feudal attitude this political scum has.

Politicians and autonomous brutes, I dispise the one as much as the other. I wish they all would just go up in flames. Dirtbags.

"In governments, the scum raises to the top." - Hayek. And in Hamburg, it currently floods the streets.

[Skybird]

Attacks on poeaceful, non-protesting residents get reported, people just happen to live in a street where the mob is raging through. Also attacks on private homes get reported.

The state has a self-declared duty to prpotect not just life and limb of citizens, but also their private property. Instead, the state trigger events by holding such summits and knpowing that he will expose his sitizens to such violence then, and damages all too often have to be paid for by the private victims of the violence.

Some years ago, police was prohibited by politicians to shield themselves with arm-shields. It was considered to be "escalatory" and "provocative". Since then, you do not see police with armshields often. Instead, one sent police officers with "De-escalation team" written on their chests and backs, to send a peaceful message and talk the other side into pacifism.

Has not worked often since then, does not work this time. Where the other arrives with the intention to party, party-prevention strategies must fail.

Pity that police is a state "service" that is monopolistic, not a privately provided service by competing companies that could be replaced if they fail to deliver the contracted load they got paid for. But as a state "service", this service gets its orders by politicians, not by the recipients of said "service".

Self-preparing defence by arming yourself also is forbidden, of course. You can get into trouble even if using pepperspray in selfdefence against an attacker. Firearms not even mentioned.

We shall lay in our own poo and wait for the nannystate to clean us. Some even think that laying in our poo doing nothing, is a virtue.

Why I am so upset? For two reasons. First for the reasons outlined, and second I know two guys being in the thick of it, one is on duty since yesterday evening, and 12 hours later since this morning he is in hospital.

[Catfish]

Why, of all places, in a city like Hamburg?
Really, is there no camp or anything far out

My best friend lives in Hamburg, and I am just some 30-45minutes out myself.
She showed me this picture:



This is crazy, looks like a civil war zone.
And reports use these words more often as well.
Police is being attacked brutally, without remorse, helicopters were attacked with self-made rockets (wtf!?) and a hospital declared some sort of emergency situation as well.

This is fun.


And yes, as Skybird said, really great idea to hold these meetings in the middle of a city. How much tax-money could be saved by finding other solutions? But hey, the suits need to get suites!

#priorities