[REQ] To which extent can Silent Hunter 5 be modded?

[GlobalExplorer]

After more than a year I decided to give SH5 a try. I have only played for a few days, but my impression was the same mixed bag as almost everyone else. Currently I still prefer SH4 with mods. But I am curious about the future of this ill conceived sim.

UBI has decided to release no more patches, that means any hard coded bugs are ironed into the executable. Moreover the writing is on the wall that there will be no more silent Hunter games in the future, at least not in the way it was (PC with focus on a realistic simulation). Currently UBIs policy is to abandon all their sim products, or ot turn their into mainstream console games.

So there will probably be no improvements either. That means it will be in the hands of the players to bring this game to where we want it, and I am interested in what is going to be feasible.

Perhaps this is a good time to ask the question what can be expected in the future. At the end of the day this is still the most advanced of the Silent Hunter series, the currently existing frame rate issues will dissapear with better hardware, and there is still hope that in a few years this will be platform for the most advanced Silent Hunter game. With all the problems it's easy to overlook that SH5 has many features that were missing in the previous games. I am not only talking about the graphics but also: new dynamic campaign features, improved radio traffic, improved navigation map, complete sub interior, animated men on ships, wolfpacks, etc.

The game is also very buggy, but all the same, what do you think, where can it go?

So far SH5 modding seems to be in an experimentation stage. Personally I think (in the long run) piecemeal mods won't do it and what could salvage this game is only a mega mod, which is not to be seen. This is a call for mod ideas, and a question to other players and perhaps some of the modders what will be possible, and how it can be achieved.

__________________________________________________ ________


Here is my (incomplete) list of directions that modding 'could' take, and the question what is going to be possible.

Hardcoded bugs and crashes - My SH5 crashes a lot but I found that most problems I have are on my side, an overheating graphics card, sound driver issues, mod conflicts. But all this aside is it possible to make SH5 absolutely stable and playable? I am particularly concerned about save game bugs and other hardcoded broken features. The combination of a game that crashes often and has save game issues is a worst case scenario. I am also concerned that the engine seems to have some inbuilt problems with its sound engine. How bad is the situation really?

exe hacks - this is black magic to most people but some wizkids might come up with their tricks, like it eventually happened with SH3.

User interface - I think most people can agree that the UI needs a complete overhaul, and the developments are promising. For example some UI mods have the much needed teleport features. I think the UI will get fixed in the future.

Graphics - mods have already achieved a lot. But Under the assumption that - for my taste - a lot of the advanced post processing filters still look horrid at times, will it be possible to disable the post processing filters, or to make them work as they should?

Sound - sound is mostly the same as in previous versions, that means it's quite good. But in my opinion the voiceovers suck and need a complete overhaul. Although all that is required is that some players with adequate voices (english and german) record new speech files, so far the experience is that modmakers are not able to come up with speech mods.

Units - it should be possible to create new units in the same way as in previous versions.

3D models - not clear, but my feeling is that it will be possible. There is hope that the tools needed are coming in the future, they might even be currently worked on.

Campaigns - it should be no problem to create better campaigns. Either from scratch or by converting the existing mods from the previous versions. But what about the new features? Do they work as intended and can they be used in more advanced ways?

Crew management - from what I see this is a no go.

Scripted conversations - will it be possible to re-script the crewmens dialogs and replace them with meaningful choices? Would it be possible to add scripts and play sound files, perhaps even trigger other functions?

Scripting in general - what is the outlook on the general scripting capabilites with the new .py script?

Removing console features and immersion killers - I am talking of the disabling of hollywood effects, objects highlights, speech bubbles, etc.

Realism - AI, sensors, boat physics, damage control, etc, what is the outlook on realism?

[kylania]

Did you write this post a year ago and finally get around to posting it now? Coz, it sure sounds like it was written a year ago and finally posted now.

Look around at the mods that are out now for an idea of what's possible. Nearly everything you mention has either been fixed via mods or a lot of work is currently going into fixing the issue.

[TheDarkWraith]

These kind of posts people should just let die. Don't respond. Let it fall down into the abyss where it needs to be. It's very obvious that this person hasn't spent one minute of looking through the SH5 mods forum

[GlobalExplorer]

I did not not expect to get such responses. Why are you so offensive?

I have installed several mods, among them yours TDW. I don't see how this
makes my question irrelevant.

My question was, from your current knowledge, what do you think are the capabilities of the SH5 engine to be modded, I can see myself what people are doing now.

If you think such questions are irrelevant, then you can really let my thread die. Although I think the problem here is something else.

[Rongel]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I did not not expect to get such responses. Why are you so offensive?

I have installed several mods, among them yours TDW. I don't see how this
makes my question irrelevant.

My question was, from your current knowledge, what do you think are the capabilities of the SH5 engine to be modded, I can see myself what people are doing now.

If you think such questions are irrelevant, then you can really let my thread die. Although I think the problem here is something else.

Well that was a bit harsh response you got there! I think overall the future of SH 5 is a valid and interesting subject too. Issues that you mentioned here are almost all already fixed a looooong time ago, UI, graphical stuff, removing object highlights and so on, and that can be found in the threads. And it can irritate people who still have to answer that, yes it's fixed a year ago.

In my opinion all intrest in SH 5 is a good thing. The only way it gets better and better is that people keep playing and modding it.

I really like the game already (I don't play any other games anymore!) but it still can be a lot better. Peace!

PS. At least you didn't ask if the DRM is still active, that makes SH 5 gamers explode (rightfully so)

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I did not not expect to get such responses. Why are you so offensive?

Because while the responses may be harsh, they are also true and honest. Over the last year dozens of people have asked these exact same questions, and the same people have given the same answers, over and over and over and over.

What they're trying to say is that it would be nice if people actually read the threads before asking them yet one more time. Sorry if you're offended, but I'm tired of reading the same questions every week, and I don't even own the game.

[0rpheus]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Hardcoded bugs and crashes - My SH5 crashes a lot but I found that most problems I have are on my side, an overheating graphics card, sound driver issues, mod conflicts. But all this aside is it possible to make SH5 absolutely stable and playable? I am particularly concerned about save game bugs and other hardcoded broken features. The combination of a game that crashes often and has save game issues is a worst case scenario. I am also concerned that the engine seems to have some inbuilt problems with its sound engine. How bad is the situation really?

exe hacks - this is black magic to most people but some wizkids might come up with their tricks, like it eventually happened with SH3.

User interface - I think most people can agree that the UI needs a complete overhaul, and the developments are promising. For example some UI mods have the much needed teleport features. I think the UI will get fixed in the future.

Graphics - mods have already achieved a lot. But Under the assumption that - for my taste - a lot of the advanced post processing filters still look horrid at times, will it be possible to disable the post processing filters, or to make them work as they should?

Sound - sound is mostly the same as in previous versions, that means it's quite good. But in my opinion the voiceovers suck and need a complete overhaul. Although all that is required is that some players with adequate voices (english and german) record new speech files, so far the experience is that modmakers are not able to come up with speech mods.

Units - it should be possible to create new units in the same way as in previous versions.

3D models - not clear, but my feeling is that it will be possible. There is hope that the tools needed are coming in the future, they might even be currently worked on.

Campaigns - it should be no problem to create better campaigns. Either from scratch or by converting the existing mods from the previous versions. But what about the new features? Do they work as intended and can they be used in more advanced ways?

Crew management - from what I see this is a no go.

Scripted conversations - will it be possible to re-script the crewmens dialogs and replace them with meaningful choices? Would it be possible to add scripts and play sound files, perhaps even trigger other functions?

Scripting in general - what is the outlook on the general scripting capabilites with the new .py script?

Removing console features and immersion killers - I am talking of the disabling of hollywood effects, objects highlights, speech bubbles, etc.

Realism - AI, sensors, boat physics, damage control, etc, what is the outlook on realism?

Bugs/Crashes are often a memory issue; seems those with decent RAM (6-8 gig) have significantly less CTDs overall. This could be due to the way SH5 loads the entire campaign layer at the beginning of the mission (especially when using OHII with its many changes), as well as other factors introduced by mods and the consequent higher memory usage.

EXE 'hacks' are already done, by TDW. Fixes the lame stock hydrophone and allows you to alter some of the map tool colours etc.

UI - TDWs New UIs with TDC, or the MaGui mod both fix the UI almost perfectly. Horses for courses, and while there are upgrades still going on, this one's almost done.

Graphics mods like Dynamic Environment are already released and making a lot of difference for most people. With regards to specifics like post-process effects, I doubt much will be possible as those options aren't available to users.

In terms of Sound, crew voiceovers and the associated re-recording and re-writing (which must come first, obviously) is a massive job - expect to wait a long long time on this one. Get Stormy's DBSM for the best environment sounds by a long shot.

Units & 3D models are currently the main focus, with TDW & Privateer working very hard on GR2 editing/viewing software that may finally allow the introduction of new playable subs and new shipping etc. Again, this is a massive job and is only now getting started.

Campaigns - OHII has already been released and reworks the stock campaign from scratch into a much better format. No doubt this means other campaigns may be made in future.

Crew management - no. Not yet anyway.

Crew writing: see crew sound above.

Scripting in general : god knows, I don't mod myself but TDW's advanced AI (IRAI) and other similar mods makes me suspect it'll be fine on this front.

Removing console features - this is disingenuous; these aren't console features, these are accessibility features (and this isn't the place to bring fanboy/waahconsolesaresoterrible arguments). Regardless, yes they've all been done away with via various mods.

Realism is what you make it. The Uboats have been altered to more realistic specs, Mia's Real Sink gives you better sinkings (as does FX_Update iirc). Only you can answer this one to your satisfaction, by trying the mods that work for you.



But the chaps do have a point - these questions are asked almost daily, and a quick glance around the first couple of pages of this forum would have shown you most of it, making the majority of your questions redundant. And at this point, speculation on what could be done is necessarily limited, because until projects like the GR2 editor become a reality we simply don't know what can be done.

Nobody minds you asking questions, even if they have been asked before - but most of us would prefer that people do their own research before repeating the same questions ad nauseum. Certainly I don't imagine anyone set out to offend you. Good luck with SH5 and don't hesitate to keep asking questions - just bear in mind a quick google might save you (and us) some time.

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Because while the responses may be harsh, they are also true and honest. Over the last year dozens of people have asked these exact same questions, and the same people have given the same answers, over and over and over and over.

What they're trying to say is that it would be nice if people actually read the threads before asking them yet one more time. Sorry if you're offended, but I'm tired of reading the same questions every week, and I don't even own the game.

I beg your pardon.

I know that some of the established modders have an ego the size of Australia. But Sailor Steve I used to think YOU were a pretty cool guy. Did you read my post at all, or just skim it, see some things that you did not like and decided I am the next best guy to vent your frustration about .. what actually?

If - as you say - you don't even own Silent Hunter V but my post above gets you that angered, perhaps you should take a break from reading this message board for a while, and the internet in general. Honestly if someone has made 35.000 posts in a single internet forum he should have a check up for internet addiction.

Look, when it becomes the norm that you are entitled to make your first post only if you have read every thread in the last year, internet forums will become reserved for autists. Which is actually what I think is going on lately in a lot of places. Apparently subsim has caught that disease, too.

I compiled a list of all questions / thoughts that conglomerated while I tried out the most popular mods around here, and while I compared the file structure with my knowledge from the other Silent Hunters. Then I made this thread because I thought this would help me to get an overall impression what can be expected in the coming years. My thoughts may not be as advanced as yours but they are also not as noobish and irrelevant as you make them. I still believe some of these questions have never been raised, let alone answered. For example, can you answer me if I can disable the post processing filters in Silent Hunter 5? And where has there ever been discussion about a voice mod that not only copies the same sentences from Das Boot for the 1000th time?

I can come to terms with the fact that my post was uninteresting to the 50 or so people that this use forum most of the time and perhaps I will abstain from posting any more. But if I really ask the same question as hundreds of people before my then why are they not stickied?

You can end this charade any time by sending me a link to one of the many threads that discuss the future potential of SHV Modding capabilties. I tried an advanced search for e.g. 'modding capabilities' in the SH5 forum but that did not bring up much. The closest I got was 'Modding Knowledge Database'
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...ding+potential
started by TDW but it ended abruptly after 9 posts.

I already know that you will not agree with me. But think about it, if everyone gets this treatment in this forum you may reach point where your mods are only played by a handful of people.

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by 0rpheus

Bugs/Crashes are often a memory issue; seems those with decent RAM (6-8 gig) have significantly less CTDs overall. This could be due to the way SH5 loads the entire campaign layer at the beginning of the mission (especially when using OHII with its many changes), as well as other factors introduced by mods and the consequent higher memory usage.

EXE 'hacks' are already done, by TDW. Fixes the lame stock hydrophone and allows you to alter some of the map tool colours etc.

UI - TDWs New UIs with TDC, or the MaGui mod both fix the UI almost perfectly. Horses for courses, and while there are upgrades still going on, this one's almost done.

Graphics mods like Dynamic Environment are already released and making a lot of difference for most people. With regards to specifics like post-process effects, I doubt much will be possible as those options aren't available to users.

In terms of Sound, crew voiceovers and the associated re-recording and re-writing (which must come first, obviously) is a massive job - expect to wait a long long time on this one. Get Stormy's DBSM for the best environment sounds by a long shot.

Units & 3D models are currently the main focus, with TDW & Privateer working very hard on GR2 editing/viewing software that may finally allow the introduction of new playable subs and new shipping etc. Again, this is a massive job and is only now getting started.

Campaigns - OHII has already been released and reworks the stock campaign from scratch into a much better format. No doubt this means other campaigns may be made in future.

Crew management - no. Not yet anyway.

Crew writing: see crew sound above.

Scripting in general : god knows, I don't mod myself but TDW's advanced AI (IRAI) and other similar mods makes me suspect it'll be fine on this front.

Removing console features - this is disingenuous; these aren't console features, these are accessibility features (and this isn't the place to bring fanboy/waahconsolesaresoterrible arguments). Regardless, yes they've all been done away with via various mods.

Realism is what you make it. The Uboats have been altered to more realistic specs, Mia's Real Sink gives you better sinkings (as does FX_Update iirc). Only you can answer this one to your satisfaction, by trying the mods that work for you.



But the chaps do have a point - these questions are asked almost daily, and a quick glance around the first couple of pages of this forum would have shown you most of it, making the majority of your questions redundant. And at this point, speculation on what could be done is necessarily limited, because until projects like the GR2 editor become a reality we simply don't know what can be done.

Nobody minds you asking questions, even if they have been asked before - but most of us would prefer that people do their own research before repeating the same questions ad nauseum. Certainly I don't imagine anyone set out to offend you. Good luck with SH5 and don't hesitate to keep asking questions - just bear in mind a quick google might save you (and us) some time.

Thank you very much for responding in this style, that's a lot of very useful information.

One question that was not really answered is the scripting of crew dialogs. I wonder if it would be possible to use the scripting engine to bring this feature to its full potential. For example you talk to the 2WO and it triggers a speech file from Das Boot. Or something more inventive, in the long run.

I have tried the various UI mods. I see the guys have already achieved a lot but considering from where this game started, I'm still not sure that the SH5 engine can handle really slick interfaces. My personal opinion of course.

As to graphics mods they also make a big difference but to my eyes it is still a mixed bag between almost photo realistic and downright horrid at other times, mostly due to the post processing filters. That's why I am really looking for ways to disable or turn them down and made some experiments with GFXSettings.cfg and Lights.cfg. I was able to make some changes to the glowing crew members in the interior, so it looks like it can be done in theory.

Removing console features - this is disingenuous; these aren't console features, these are accessibility features (and this isn't the place to bring fanboy/waahconsolesaresoterrible arguments). Regardless, yes they've all been done away with via various mods.

Of course this is subjective. Personally I do not like them one bit as they are all athmosphere killers to me. And I know that I am not alone too. Well, I must probably dig a bit more to find the respective mods.

[0rpheus]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Thank you very much for responding in this style, that's a lot of very useful information.

One question that was not really answered is the scripting of crew dialogs. I wonder if it would be possible to use the scripting engine to bring this feature to its full potential. For example you talk to the 2WO and it triggers a speech file from Das Boot. Or something more inventive, in the long run.

I have tried the various UI mods. I see the guys have already achieved a lot but considering from where this game started, I'm still not sure that the SH5 engine can handle really slick interfaces. My personal opinion of course.

As to graphics mods they also make a big difference but to my eyes it is still a mixed bag between almost photo realistic and downright horrid at other times, mostly due to the post processing filters. That's why I am really looking for ways to disable or turn them down and made some experiments with GFXSettings.cfg and Lights.cfg. I was able to make some changes to the glowing crew members in the interior, so it looks like it can be done in theory.

Of course this is subjective. Personally I do not like them one bit as they are all athmosphere killers to me. And I know that I am not alone too. Well, I must probably dig a bit more to find the respective mods.

Obviously there are limits to what can be done, but considering the stock state of the game, especially the UI, I think the advancements are quite significant already.

Re the scripting of the crew dialogue, this would have to be done in tandem with recording of new dialogue, as one would be pretty useless without the other. I've seen the crew dialogue files and editing them would be easy enough; it's more a case of time/necessity. Creating new text dialogue is something I've considered undertaking, but I don't have the knowledge to turn it into an actual mod, and I really don't have the time right now. Maybe next year though..

Re post-process filters, the only real issue I have with them is the slightly flaky anti-aliasing. I believe there's some SSAO (which looks nice imo) too, but beyond that I don't know specifics. You might be able to tweak the cfgs as you say, but in terms of specific post-process effects, you'll probably be limited by whatever is in those cfgs - if it ain't there, you can't change it, would be my guess. I'd be happy to be proved wrong though!

The mods you want to remove the speech bubbles is 'No Damn Bubbles, No Damn Halo':

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=162677

There's another mod that removes the '!' icon to indicate new 'speech' available, but memory fails me on that one. Sure someone else will know however.

And for the record, Sailor Steve is a top chap, as are most of the people that have replied to your thread. It is simply the case that the great majority of your questions could have been answered with a quick google, and that many of us here get quite tired of continually repeating ourselves. You do have a point though, the stickies do really need updating (or maybe an FAQ posted). It's perfectly fine to ask about the future potential of modding, but over 50% of what you saw as the 'future' has already been implemented in one way or another, hence the slightly unfavourable reactions.

I maintain, however, that no-one set out to offend you, and would also point out that accusing members of 'internet addiction' and other similar reactions will result in you getting no help whatsoever. Since they didn't mean to offend you, and you didn't mean to offend in the OP, let's chalk this one up to misinterpretation on all sides and get on with the business of sinking ships.

[tonschk]

Originally Posted by Rongel

I really like the game already (I don't play any other games anymore!) but it still can be a lot better. Peace!

Same here , the Silent Hunter 5 is the only one I am intrested, the first person shooter games are really Boring

[GlobalExplorer]

Thanks again for the great tips. No I did not start this thread to offend anyone, and I also still think Sailor Steve is a great chap, but it was not me who got the ball rolling. I would like to point out that ordering no one should respond to a thread is very offensive, especially since this was not an inane one liner full of spelling mistakes. No offense taken since you must get used to such behavior in close knit communities but this was my response.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I beg your pardon.

And you have it, or at least my apology.

I know that some of the established modders have an ego the size of Australia. But Sailor Steve I used to think YOU were a pretty cool guy.

I used to be, and still am on alternate Sundays. Jokes aside, I've had several people over the years say that same thing. It seems I'm cool as long as I'm not doing it to them.

Did you read my post at all, or just skim it, see some things that you did not like and decided I am the next best guy to vent your frustration about .. what actually?

The latter, and you're right. I seem to have done this several times over the last few days, and I'm not sure why. Maybe it's age, maybe it's frustration, maybe it's my true nature shining through. But those would all be excuses, and I don't know. So again I apologize.

If - as you say - you don't even own Silent Hunter V but my post above gets you that angered, perhaps you should take a break from reading this message board for a while, and the internet in general. Honestly if someone has made 35.000 posts in a single internet forum he should have a check up for internet addiction.

In my defense I will say that my actual daily post count is fairly low compared to some others, but on the other hand I really don't have much else to do these days.

Look, when it becomes the norm that you are entitled to make your first post only if you have read every thread in the last year, internet forums will become reserved for autists. Which is actually what I think is going on lately in a lot of places. Apparently subsim has caught that disease, too.

Now that I will argue with. We've had a spate of people asking the same question at least once every week. In those cases people are just being lazy. But you're not those cases, so I'll apologize a third time.

I already know that you will not agree with me.

Well, you know wrong. I agree with you that I spoke out of turn. It will happen again, no matter how much I try. So I'll be right some of the time, and I'll be wrong most of the time, and all I can do then is say I'm sorry.

[GlobalExplorer]

My apology to Sailor Steve. I remember that I did call you a great chap a number of times myself, with good reason. By the way, and no matter if this really concerns you or not, internet addiction is not a crime these days and we are all afflicted already. It should be enough to acknowledge that it exists and it explains a lot of our strange behavior.

Of course I should have learned more before I start a new thread in a forum that is reserved for the people who are really up to date.

The thing is when I start something I instantly begin to make lists of things according to their importance and in this case I think I compiled a pretty good list of things that should be adressed. Because I don't know enough about the progress I wanted to get a clearer idea of the available platform, based on the capabilities and definite limits of the engine, thinking of a more unified approach, not just individual mods that potentially clash. Probably I got a bit impatient because my experience with the existing mods is still fractured. But they will evolve and will most likely be brought together more and more.

Anyway, although MY comments to the issues were not well researched and therefore definitely not up to date, there was some great overview given to almost all these points by 0rpheus so I think the topic is not without substance.

Still I must say that I sense a certain jumpiness, which one could interpret as possible frustration about the problems with the game, the direction of the community, the decline of PC gaming in general, or something psychological. But if I go into this more it would be perceived as flogging another dead horse, so it's ok with me.

[Trevally.]

Originally Posted by 0rpheus

Re the scripting of the crew dialogue, this would have to be done in tandem with recording of new dialogue, as one would be pretty useless without the other. I've seen the crew dialogue files and editing them would be easy enough; it's more a case of time/necessity. Creating new text dialogue is something I've considered undertaking, but I don't have the knowledge to turn it into an actual mod, and I really don't have the time right now. Maybe next year though..

Orpheus - you are the guy for making this a mod
We have all read your writting skills "SH5 - re-review"

You know you could start this with some simple changes (im thinking OHII related). You have looked at the speech script page and some of these could be edited to be more relevant to the campaigns.