US Politics Thread 2021-24

[les green01]

if they didn't want the baby should have wrap it up or done the other options during the act then there are people that want babies cant have them that another option now i could see abortion if the woman was rape,incest

[August]

Originally Posted by les green01

...now i could see abortion if the woman was rape,incest

Rape and incest are terrible things indeed but neither are the fault of the innocent unborn baby who has to pay for them with it's life.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Any assumption regarding the presence or absence of awareness in any human animal remains just that: an unsupported as­sumption. I assume conception brings about awareness, you don’t. So then, at what point in the process do you draw the line where human life achieves awareness? When is it OK to kill it? Save the planet! But kill the unborn when convenient. How sick, twisted and demented we have become. Does Wendy, when she has just beaten Onkle Neal at a game of Texas Hold’em feel elated? I believe not. But there is nothing I can do to shore up those assumptions either.

Its been shown not a tablespoon but a fookin’ SINGLE CELL protozoa took hold of the end of a fibril, and backed off at an angle, as though to tear it loose. When the fibril would not give, the SINGLE CELL protozoon came in again, then backed away at a new angle, working the fibril loose, much as a dog might have done, working loose a chunk of meat. Watching that SINGLE CELL at work, not to anthropomorphize. Did it know what it was doing?

I could care less about religion and politics. Is a fetus as you say just a tablespoon of cells? Or are those cells aware and feel the pain and agony of it being ripped out from its mother’s womb? Do tell! As for me until proven otherwise I believe they should be protected.

You compare a protozon with a ordinary tissue cell? Then you have not gotten the difference. And in a protozoen you have no awareness, no signal processing, no brain. It will never develope beyond what it is. It will never be able to combine with other protozons to form a higher organ, and organs, and suprastructure named organisms.

Take a developed human body, and then open the skull and take away the brain. Or simply smash it while keeping the rest of the body on life support. And then see what humanness you still find in that torso. None. Except maybe your own echoing memory, if you knew that person.
Humans and higher animals are more than just reflex-driven torsos. Without organs to perceive stimuli that match the organs design, a nervous system to transport electric impulses and a neural network of hugh complexity capable to create this wonder called awareness, a torso is an empty hull.


I know about this topic of near death experiences, but while not being convinced they mean anything (being near to death and being beyind death is not the same and nobody has ever proven anyone to really have returned from the really dead, with clinical definitions having been altered and changed since decades to support advances in organ transplantation business) if they are real they point at a quality that is beyond this awareness that depends on a organic hull whose functioning originally creates it and without which it would not be. A car rolls if you start it, but that is not to say it lives. A muscle cramps if you apply electricity, but that does not mean it is aware, it only means that the various cells in it function according to their role and design. And they will not do anything different than this: cramping and relaxing if nervous stimulation reaches them. They will never detect the impact of a photon like their cell colleagues in the retina or report that event to a brain. For "humanness" organic preconditions must be fulfilled, if they are not met - no brain, no nervous system of a certain developed complexity - its meat, not a human.

I cannot rule out the existence of a supraorganic mind, this something that buddhists would call anathman, the nin-ego. Call it the divune sparkle, call it a cosmic mind way above the level of organically depending awareness, but if this exists, it is certainly completely nondepending on organic or material carriers - and may be the cause bringung them even into form and existence. Some may call this final cause of everything "God". But that is terminology only.
Others talk of morphogenetic fields, or VALIS. Imagination knows no limits.

[Skybird]

Its Amercan groups and organizations who bring their militant campaigns to Germany now, too. With enormous financial supports and a very obvious religious fundament. In other words, its very well about religious missionising. The last thing we wanted or needed is that now in Germany we see as militant scenes of anti abortion activism as in the US.

Dont tell me, therefore, religion has nothing to do with it.

Or that the dominance of males over females does not play into this. Said religion and patriarchalism go hand in hand.


Says somebody who ticks the boxes for anti-genderism and fascismo-feminism. Equality before the law, I say. Not more, not less. Anti abortion campaigns last but not least also are vehicles to bring dark aged ideas about men dominating wimen, and founding this on religious views that due to being "religion" are claimed to be beyond earthly criticism. In Poland they have just sued a female doctor who gave abortion pills to a woman that got brutally raped. That means to turn the victims martyrdom into a lufe-long punishment. Wonderful. It amazes me time and again how cruel man can be - in the name of claimed moral superiority.

[MaDef]

In Poland they have just sued a female doctor who gave abortion pills to a woman that got brutally raped. That means to turn the victims martyrdom into a lufe-long punishment. Wonderful. It amazes me time and again how cruel man can be - in the name of claimed moral superiority.

Is it just me or, does anyone else see the irony in that statement?

[mapuc]

It's her choice or It's her life a.s.o.

Those are the words I hear in this abortion debate.

I do not disagree that it is her choice/life

What about the unborn child ?

Lets talk about this unborn child-When does it become human ? Where you can say it's a human and not an embryo.

Rape/incest.
Here I fully understand if a woman chose abortion

What I never gonna accept is using abortion as a preventive measure.
(if it's not done due to rape/incest)

Markus

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

No doubt much of the world’s ills can be attributed to organized religion.

From my own experiences and personal thoughts. I could care less about what religion or politics has to say. In my own opinion once flesh is conceived in the womb that new life is deserving of protection. To kill a life in the womb and then dissect it in the name of science is not oppressive? I think it’s closer to slavery than anything else. There’s big money in abortion and it doesn’t have jack squat to do with ‘pro choice’ or the health of the mother.

But it's perfectly okay after birth to let them die, apparently, as long as they don't learn real history in school or critical thinking skills.

[MaDef]

Not a very cogent response, but a good deflection non the less.

[August]

Pro-life arguments that make exemptions for rape or incest are hypocritical. If an unborn baby deserves life then it shouldn't make a difference what the circumstances of it's conception were.

They did not commit a crime, so why should they have to pay for it with their life?

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by August

Pro-life arguments that make exemptions for rape or incest are hypocritical. If an unborn baby deserves life then it shouldn't make a difference what the circumstances of it's conception were.

They did not commit a crime, so why should they have to pay for it with their life?

I fully understand your point-of-view in this case.

What I wonder is:
This thing who's growing inside a woman - Is it an embryo or a human if the abortion is done before week 6 ?

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Lets talk about this unborn child-When does it become human ?

Thats the question it is about, and I tried toi answer it.



Many nations, also Germany, use a "Fristenlösungsmodell", I do not know if "deadline solution model" is a matching translation. In these models the law-giver tries to mark this critical point of time, before which abortion is legal, and nbeyon d which it is no more. As far as nobody comes up with a better solution, this is the option I chose for. One can debate when this point of time is to be marked, but I would always insist that the decision is based on best actual medical understanding of the topic, no religious worldviews or business interests.



The Polish radical approach where even abportion due to rape is under penalty, in my underdtandign is cruel and barbaric, victimising the victim of the rape a second time and punishing her for life. Unforgivable and untolerable for me.



Les Green describes a good way, too, and I think partially in the same way. What if the mother does not want the baby but wills to carry iut out,m then cna giv eit away without legally sanctioned? I think that must be the case when the fetus is too developed already for aborting it.



I am strictly against what the ultra-extreme pro-abortionists want: permission to abort at any time during pregnancy. From some point on THAT indeed is cold-blooded murder.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MaDef

Is it just me or, does anyone else see the irony in that statement?

Sweet. But the law has been campaigned for by both the ultra conservative catholic church in Poland and the PiS party, both of which are dominated by classical patriarchalic structures. I think both Polish catholocism and the PiS are really insuspicious of promoting modern feminism or sexual licentiousness (what goes on inside the heads of these men is nobody's business... LOL)

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I fully understand your point-of-view in this case.

What I wonder is:
This thing who's growing inside a woman - Is it an embryo or a human if the abortion is done before week 6 ?

Markus

That is the $64,000.00 question.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by MaDef

Not a very cogent response, but a good deflection non the less.

That went unanswered. Pulling money from school lunch programs. Wealthy people like Bret Favre taking five million in TARP money to build an indoor volleyball court while 80% of the poor that apply can't get funding, calling for Medicaid cuts, giving lip service to protecting children in school from mass shooters, etc.

[August]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I fully understand your point-of-view in this case.

What I wonder is:
This thing who's growing inside a woman - Is it an embryo or a human if the abortion is done before week 6 ?

Markus

Well strictly speaking it's a human embryo from the moment of conception on up to 8 weeks when they start calling it a human fetus so it's a human throughout its entire 9 month gestation.

On the other hand the six week mark doesn't seem to have any special significance in it's development at all. It would be an artificial cut-off point at best.