Questions, Flames, Gripes?

[crackaces]

I have just crossed the 100 hour mark of playing SES Jutland. I am a 'veteran' of AH Jutland and TSR Cordite and Steel-- both games primarly designed for WWI ship to ship combat and Jutland having some strategic componet. However, SES Jutland IMHO combines a nice blend of strategic (What is the goal of the Navy? How should forces be distributed?); Operational considerations (Which fleet goes where and how do they get to the targets?) and Tatical (How do I position ships in the place places and maneuver to inflict the most damage while saving my ships?), 50 bucks for a 100 hours enjoyment and I am still playing is a great value! I pay $100 to play golf or see an NHL game, and sometimes it is not as enjoyable!

More so -- this game is playable and does not require a living room or a gym floor to play!

Here is another big plus -- at least on my platform I have never encoutered a single crash to desktop. I beleive that is fantastic for a game that uses such complex graphics. Heck the Total War series 10 years later still has users complaining about CTD's!

I am a former geek by trade and so I am not one to assume 'X' is a bug, because I do not have the Functional Specification to say behavior 'X' is a defect, but the following software behaviors are annoying to me:

* I have observed the behavior that if ships break contact within the tatical map because of visablity (thus the visibility is far less than a 'hex') the ships are placed at the center of the hex(?) as a united task force for the next contact. The situation was that a division of a TS squadron made to to zeebrugue while the other divsion was about 20000 meters away when contact broke. A force finds the other divsion and the force at zeebrugee is teleported out. Forcing me to maneuver the forces once again for safety. I think I understand that reforming task forces after battles would be a nightmare for users, but maybe an option to "reform task force after the battle," or make that the default and have a button to "leave ships in current location"

* I still think a point should be reached where the AI abandons the guns to save the ship rather than make a last ditch stand. But at least I know the philosophy of SES and will adjust my play to assume that a sinking ship still requires attention to keep down accurate fire.

* I set area patrol for my Zep's and I have found the balloons taking a Sunday stroll over France. Let the Army use Albatros planes to patrol the front lines ! Maybe allow the user to select an area or enter vectors (between X to Y degrees for Z thousand meters). I like allowing a mouse select over an area to patrol.

* When I click on a ship and it zooms in -- the screen always turns toward a profile of the ship, which always involves readjusing the screen to make a change of course possible. It is very annoying

Ok back to fighting the war ...

[crackaces]

I realize double posting is bad etiquette but I think the battle recentering issue this is worthy of seperate attention because now its a problem.

I have a flotilla of Torpedo boats ordered to "Return to Base" and after successive battles of maneuvering back to Zeebrugee and then reenaging because another ship is in sight -- the game proceeds to teleport the forces out about 15K meters to do this again. Right now the game is stuck in a loop where as a CL and 4 destoyers sail within range realize they are outgunned by batteries and retreat. Game goes in strategic mode and then battle mode starts as a continous loop. Over and over again. I sail back toward port and wash rinse and repeat. I will try some things like keeping my ships say 1K Meters out and let the brits face my guns or something to get out of this loop.

Maybe a way to prevent this is to equate division leader in port (over that anchor) as division in port and division leader(s) in port as task force in port for stratigic purposes. Thus stop the endless loop of stratigic map to battle map.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by crackaces

I realize double posting is bad etiquette but I think the battle recentering issue this is worthy of seperate attention because now its a problem.

I have a flotilla of Torpedo boats ordered to "Return to Base" and after successive battles of maneuvering back to Zeebrugee and then reenaging because another ship is in sight -- the game proceeds to teleport the forces out about 15K meters to do this again. Right now the game is stuck in a loop where as a CL and 4 destoyers sail within range realize they are outgunned by batteries and retreat. Game goes in strategic mode and then battle mode starts as a continous loop. Over and over again. I sail back toward port and wash rinse and repeat. I will try some things like keeping my ships say 1K Meters out and let the brits face my guns or something to get out of this loop.

Maybe a way to prevent this is to equate division leader in port (over that anchor) as division in port and division leader(s) in port as task force in port for stratigic purposes. Thus stop the endless loop of stratigic map to battle map.

Yeah, I agree, there's still a lot of oddities with "bouncing" forces right now. I hope something is eventually done with them. I think one solution would be to give one, probably larger, force the "right of way" to continue moving forward no matter what, while the other one can be repositioned relative to it. The problem right now is that both forces "bounce" back from each other after a battle. If they were on opposing courses before the battle, it indeed does cause a very silly loop - one that can sometimes cause a puny destroyer flotilla to force the whole High Seas Fleet to get stuck for many hours in a dangerous place while the Grand Fleet closes in on it...

[crackaces]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Yeah, I agree, there's still a lot of oddities with "bouncing" forces right now. I hope something is eventually done with them. I think one solution would be to give one, probably larger, force the "right of way" to continue moving forward no matter what, while the other one can be repositioned relative to it. The problem right now is that both forces "bounce" back from each other after a battle. If they were on opposing courses before the battle, it indeed does cause a very silly loop - one that can sometimes cause a puny destroyer flotilla to force the whole High Seas Fleet to get stuck for many hours in a dangerous place while the Grand Fleet closes in on it...

Oh this problem is far more complex than I thought So the fact that the logic recenters task forces after a battle has lots of ramifications beyond just the one I described. My thought is the option of leaving ships in place and an option of reforming the fleet but this problem seems deeper. But I do think if the battle continues to move in a direction that is the forces are not recentered unless requested, and if forces are allowed to port in tatitical mode carried over to the stratgic map .. the problem would be solved ....

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by crackaces

* I have observed the behavior that if ships break contact within the tatical map because of visablity (thus the visibility is far less than a 'hex') the ships are placed at the center of the hex(?) as a united task force for the next contact.

This is a very complex and irksome issue for us at SES. We have ammeliorated it considerably, but it's still a problem at night in areas of high traffic and narrow water, such as the Channel. Sorry for the inconvenience. We might be able to tweak it a bit more in the future, but we'll have to see.

The underlying cause is the necessity of having granularity (call them "hexes" but they're really squares) in the campaign map. Without going into the long technical explanation, suffice to say that when the game has to set up a battle, places like the Channel at night sometimes cause it to have to fudge a bit due to the various rules for how often TFs can engage, plus all the LOS issues in heavily travelled areas. Thus, sometimes your TF isn't where you think it should be. From the POV of the player as Lord High Admiral back in port, you can rationalize this as your commander at sea not always doing what you think is best.

* I set area patrol for my Zep's and I have found the balloons taking a Sunday stroll over France. Let the Army use Albatros planes to patrol the front lines ! Maybe allow the user to select an area or enter vectors (between X to Y degrees for Z thousand meters). I like allowing a mouse select over an area to patrol.

You CAN set the patrol area. It goes like this:
1. Select the TF you want to do an area patrol.
2. Click on the check-mark button to close the order button flyout while keeping the TF selected.
3. Move the cursor to the point where you want the center of the patrol area to be and right-click there.
4. When the orders buttons come up again, select Area Patrol.
5. A slider for patrol radius then appears. This is in MAP "HEXES", not Kms or miles, BTW. Select the desired radius and there you go.

Once set up, an area patrol works like this. The TF will try to keep about 1/3 of its ships/zeps in the patrol area, 1/3 in tansit both coming and going, and 1/3 refitting in port, but having about 1/3 in the patrol area takes priority. The individual ships will take a direct path to the center of the patrol area, then wander around more or less randomly within it, usualy going through each "hex" in it once (fuel permitting) and only once, then go straight back home. The TF will dispatch a relief ship timed to reach the patrol area just as another ship is leaving for home, trying to keep 1/3 of its ships in the patrol area at all times.

Assuming the ships have adequate range to complete the whole patrol area, there are a few of things you should keep in mind when setting up patrols:

The larger the patrol's radius, the longer individual ships will be on station, so the less often the TF will need to dispatch relief ships, and vice versa. The further away the patrol area is from the TF's base, the longer it takes to get there, so relief ships go out more often, and vice versa. The more often relief ships need to sail, the more ships the TF needs to contain in order to keep the patrol flowing smoothly.

IOW, to keep a few ships always in the patrol area, you need to balance the transit distance, area radius, and TF size. For any give TF size, there comes a point where the patrol area is so far away, and so relatively small, that the priority given to keeping ships on station means the TF will send out all its ships in a conga line before any come back. Thus, there will be a gap in the patrol while the 1st ships sent out are refitting prior to going out again. As a player, you can overcome this by adding ships to the TF, moving it to a base closer to the patrol area, and/or tweaking the radius. If you have any patrols you think are very critical to do right, therefore, I recommend testing them in a separate campaign until you arrive at suitable parameters, then replicating them in your real compaign.

Note, however, that you can exploit this behavior to form linear patrols. Set the patrol radius to 0 or 1 and put it a fair distance away from base. Because the TF's ships essentially just go to the center point and come straight back, they have to be replaced very frequently, so you end up with a double parade of ships going and coming between the base and the patrol center point. This is quite useful for blocking straits.

[crackaces]

You CAN set the patrol area. It goes like this:
1. Select the TF you want to do an area patrol.
2. Click on the check-mark button to close the order button flyout while keeping the TF selected.
3. Move the cursor to the point where you want the center of the patrol area to be and right-click there.
4. When the orders buttons come up again, select Area Patrol.
5. A slider for patrol radius then appears. This is in MAP "HEXES", not Kms or miles, BTW. Select the desired radius and there you go.

Thanks very much for the clarification. I was assuming meters Ok I have tried this and it works quite nicely.

The underlying cause is the necessity of having granularity (call them "hexes" but they're really squares) in the campaign map. Without going into the long technical explanation, suffice to say that when the game has to set up a battle, places like the Channel at night sometimes cause it to have to fudge a bit due to the various rules for how often TFs can engage, plus all the LOS issues in heavily travelled areas. Thus, sometimes your TF isn't where you think it should be. From the POV of the player as Lord High Admiral back in port, you can rationalize this as your commander at sea not always doing what you think is best.

I believe this problem is far worse than rationalization. I would agree with you to blow it off as a commander not following orders if it happened on occasion; however, it totally affects the ability to perform a hit and run strategy near ones port. Let us send some DD's in Zeebruggee as per the Beef Run strategy ... it is inevitable that the Task force will engage ships near Zeebrugee. The strategy of a running home to port can be made impossible. I defeated 4 DD's, a TB, 5 more French DD's each time successfully making it back to port but on the forth loop I am facing 4 more DD's and some TB's and the task force teleported out once again 28 Kilometers from Zeebruggee out of ammo ... I guess I can start over and not try a Zeebruggee Strategy but that just does not seem fulfulling ...

At the very least I hope SES could allow task force division leaders that make it to the blue anchor to stratigically consider the division in port -- and not teleport those elements.

EDIT: In the meantime I had a situation where ships at rest and ships coming to port suddenly started colliding in a massive ball of yarn just because an enemy TB caused the ships at rest to be activated and teleported at the wrong time. Even before the first command could be issued 3 ships sank.

[crackaces]

I find myself having to pause the action -- even if I want to make a simple maneuver because of the two step change of course process. One thought is if a division leader is selected allow the player to use the arrow keys to move the course arrow tracking the points on the compass clockwise and counter-clockwise and assume that the orders are follow in succession. Always center the course on a compass point if the division is currently on some oddball compass direction. If anything else is desired then the two step process on the flyout is used.

Thus one could quickly order "Turn two points to port follow me" for a division very quickly -- even in real time without pausing. Heck even if the view focuses on the ship and away from the action I could still issue meaningful orders from the compass.

Just a thought ...