Here we go again-Ukraine once again

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

This phase of the smoke & mirrors Sitzkrieg is what Churchill called 'jaw-jaw'...but our approach is hampered seriously imho when at the conference table eyeball to eyeball with the imperialist decieveing rebuilders of the Stalin's Iron Curtain needing a landbridge to their Crimean land-snatch further gaining key port Mariupol for a Black Sea port....and your Yank eyeballer is named...Blinken!?? (as in: "first one to blink ...loses") I may be Biden my time but we're surely gonna blink!?

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Putin knows we have a elderly, weak, and senile martinet currently occupying the Presidency, feels emboldened by this. I am torn by this, should he invade without any real consequence, especially from the US he will be further emboldened. Then again, why should be get into a war over Ukraine? After all, the US outright invaded a sovereign nation without cause in 2003.

Then again, Biden's handlers know with the rising anger and angst among majority of the US population, great time for distraction eh? They are beating the war drums already. A incident to bring out the jingoistic fervor that resides like a dormant virus in our nations collective bloodstream is just what they need to distract the masses and silence opposition. Perilous times in which we exist..

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

An unconfirmed report indicates that Russia purchased 90,000 six-foot high male dummies from China a few months ago and the order was rushed through so they didn't have time to code 3 the faces so they appear more like Russians----instead of Chinese. Since Russia has millions of old Red Army uniforms in storage and some of them will fit a six-foot frame, the CIA is reportedly using a "spy in the sky" to zoom in and take a look at the Russian hordes "massed"on Ukraine's borders. First thing they saw was that many of them appear to be Chinese. Second thing is that most of them haven't moved a step since arriving. Hmmm?

Maskirovka on the grand style meets the old Soviet tenet: "numbers (90k dummies)have a cachet of their own"...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

^ Can NATO expect help from Germany if, God forbid, there's a war between Russia and NATO ?

Tjaaaaaaa... Blind trust sounds different, I assume. But then, it went into Afgju naistan with other Euzropean nations, too, so I assume it strongly depends on circumstances, and individual situations. Article 5 leaves a backdoor open to not go with the aliance majority decision. It might dfepend on what poarty is formign the govenbrment. A left or SPD government is more anti-NATO and anti-US than a CDU-led government.

Reading some of your comment makes me wonder where Germans trust is-With the Russian or with NATO ?

A few, and mostly the elder, Germans are pro-America, due to WWII. Most are anti-US. Russopühilia is deeply encode din Germna genes, the Germans admired Russia/Sovjet socialism - and strong dicatorship! - already after WWI, and even huge famines and hundreds of thosuands iof not milliosn starving in Russia did not lead the Germans to question of the Russian model and that the future must be planned economy and belongs to spcialism. The trust in and craving for strong government regulation is very strong in Germany, the clihée of obedientz, servile subjects functionig n best when state authority commands them around, hoilds quiote some truth. It comes from the Prussian "Beamtenstaat" and Fritz reeducating his people to be obedient subjects to the higher state autghority. This is deeply engrave din the German soul (and helped the Nazis tremendously, of course).



Let me summarise it this way: Russia is dearer to the German heart than America, and if I were the others, I never would trust the Germans blindly and full-heartly. Or in Thatchers eternal words: you either have the Germans at your throat, or at your feet.



The SPD also has intellectual handicaps there. Since Brand's "Ostpolitik" they think they owe special friendship to the USSR and Russia and that nobody in the West knows and understands Russia better than the SPD-Germans.



Well, Putin cannot complain so far. Chancellor Scholz (SPD) really tries his best to pull the teeth of Wetsenr reacitons so fare. Always vague. Always blablabla. Never hard and fast. Always manouvering. He is a teflon-coated weasel.



Also, the gas prices in Germany are what they are. The point there is;: if we would be buying liquid gas from america, it would be even more expensive. Thats why the industry did not want to increase its share in past years: nobody wanted to pay for it. Germany is in a very ambivalent situation in all this. Much of that is Germany's own fault, it is home-made and Merkel-made. But not all. 60% Germany's work, and 40% the devil's contribution.

[Skybird]

Most of us seem to expect that the Russians would just roll over the Ukrainians like they did in 2014. But this French article raises some doubts on that. 2014 was a rude wakeup call. And the Ukraine has boosted its military tremendously since then.



https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2...ussian-goliath

The Ukrainian army has grown from about 6,000 combat-ready troops to nearly 150,000 according to a summary of the US Congressional Research Service conducted in June 2021. "Since 2014, Ukraine has sought to modernize its tanks, armored vehicles and artillery systems,” the report notes.Kyiv’s financial efforts to modernise its military over the past seven years has been significant. The share of the national budget allocated to military expenditure increased from 1.5 percent of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) in 2014 to more than 4.1 percent in 2020, according to World Bank figures. This share of defence spending is more than most NATO countries and similar to Russia's military spending.
Ukraine, moreover, is no longer alone against Russia. Since 2014, NATO as an organisation as well as some member countries "have provided considerable aid, which is equivalent to about $14 billion", Fasola estimated.
The US has been the main provider of military hardware such as radio equipment, military transport trucks and more than 200 Javelin man-portable antitank missiles. Britain, Poland and Lithuania have also supplied Ukraine with defensive weapons.
Even Turkey has come to Ukraine's aid by selling its famous Bayraktar TB2 drones. "While the U.S.-provided weapons, such as the Javelin antitank missiles, have garnered the most headlines of Ukraine’s armory, Kyiv’s less-hyped backing from Turkey has raised alarms in Moscow,” noted the Washington Post over the weekend.

[mapuc]

Thou longer the war will be fought thou more is the chance NATO will get involved.

Markus

[ET2SN]

Umm..



Its starting to get serious.

[ET2SN]

Meanwhile, this is long but its pretty good.



Keep in mind that they are two retired USN officers telling you what they can tell you. The response to the "carriers are sitting ducks" comment was amusing.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by ET2SN

Catfish; The original idea [for NATO, my edit] was to avoid another massive land war in Europe.
The CCCP was "expanding its borders" at the time.

The original idea was to have an excuse to keep US presence up in Europe for different reasons, militarily, spying, and last not least economical.
If Germany would have remained one neutral country, with US and Soviet Union withdrawing their troops (as proposed by the latter), the US would not have it.

When the Soviet Union finally tried to 'annex' or at least influence Greece helping the communists in the greek civil war, and England announcing to stop helping the other side, the then US president stated something like "up to here and no further", known as the Truman doctrine. Again not exactly NATO.


A bit more on topic, when America changed its foreign policy in 1947:
"Truman also argued that the United States was compelled to assist “free peoples” in their struggles against “totalitarian regimes,” because the spread of authoritarianism would “undermine the foundations of international peace and hence the security of the United States.” In the words of the Truman Doctrine, it became “the policy of the United States to support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures."

This would certainly apply to the Ukraine, but America has since changed its view, their position changing back and forth, so not sure what to make of this. I take it Putin was quite content with Trump striving for US isolation and non-interference, but now it is another thing with Biden.
Maybe Putin overplayed his cards, the US seem suddenly a bit more alert.

[Skybird]

Official NATO self-description:

[...] the Alliance's creation was part of a broader effort to serve three purposes: deterring Soviet expansionism, forbidding the revival of nationalist militarism in Europe through a strong North American presence on the continent, and encouraging European political integration.

[Skybird]

In German.


https://www.nzz.ch/international/rus...ein-ld.1666061

[raymond6751]

Originally Posted by Moonlight

I'm happy to say that Nato without the support of the USA and the UK would get steam rollered by the Russians, as far as I'm concerned this is a European Continent problem and not anyone else's to get involved in.

Macron and Merkel's smurfs against the mighty Russian bear?, it'll be over in a month, if Merkel's not careful she'll have Russian troops doing a victory march through the streets of Germany........again. As for Macron, I assume he'll be willing France on to the final victory from some safe country like Canada, that's if the French haven't all jumped into dinghies and are paddling furiously towards the UK's shores, meanwhile he will have come up with a dastardly plan to deflect all the blame on the English again.

****ing Muppets.

By the way, Merkel isn't running Germany any more. France wants the EU to do the negotiating, not the US or NATO. It makes sense, since they are financially dependent on Russia now. An oil pipeline, Russia to Germany, has just been completed. They need that oil.

Dollars always win.

[raymond6751]

I think the Russians will invade before spring turns the ground to mud. That is why they are at the borders, to move very soon.

They will take Ukraine, a job unfinished, started in Crimea. Putin had to be sure the US was so messed up (2 years now) that he would not be interfered with. Note too the Chinese are stirring the pot.

The arms to Ukraine are a token. Nato countries bordering the East were getting nervous, rightfully too. Putin has plans to put the old Soviet Union back in place. He never expected his demands to be met on Ukraine. He is building excuses to move.

Like last time, he will likely use insurgents and/or infiltrators to stir up Ukraine. He can then say he has to protect Russians there who are under attack. Same as last time.

Add to that cyber attacks and misinformation campaigns around the world. He has been planning this for a while. Who is next, Poland?

[Exocet25fr]

Biden is afraid because France and few other european countries dont need usa and nato anymore ! only australia needs them , Russia will be the best Partner. And Ukraine isn't a nato member !?, never Putin will accept that !

[August]

Originally Posted by Exocet25fr

Biden is afraid because France and few other european countries dont need usa and nato anymore ! only australia needs them , Russia will be the best Partner. And Ukraine isn't a nato member !?, never Putin will accept that !

Good because as far as I'm concerned NATO should have been disbanded with the fall of the Soviet Union. Especially when France told them to take a hike back in the 70's. I say Russia is Europe's problem, let them deal with the bear, and if they can't then you deserve to see your "best Partner" Russia driving their tanks down the Champs-Élysées.

[Jimbuna]

Britain is prepared to deploy troops to protect Nato allies in Europe if Russia invades Ukraine, Boris Johnson has said in a Commons statement.

He also warned that President Putin would face "ferocious" Ukrainian resistance and "many Russian mothers' sons will not be coming home".

The UK and its allies would also respond swiftly and "in unison" with "severe" economic sanctions, he added.

Russia, which denies plans to invade, has built up troops at the border.

Some 100,000 Russian soldiers have been deployed.

The US has put 8,500 troops on alert to deploy at short notice, which Russia said caused it "great concern".

Members of the Nato alliance, including Denmark, Spain, Bulgaria and the Netherlands, are sending more fighter jets and warships to Eastern Europe to bolster defences in the region.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60123328

Nice one Boris. I hope you have your uniform neatly pressed and ready for the trip.

[Exocet25fr]

We have the nuclear bomb.....!