GER politics thread

[Skybird]

Der Spiegel:
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Bundeswehr was responsible for Puma total loss - not industry

13 minor, 21 moderate and one serious damage: An internal report analyzes what put Puma infantry fighting vehicles out of action during a firing exercise. The result is unflattering for the troops.

On page nine, the good news finally arrives. By then, the reader has already had to slog through 34 small and medium-sized "damage diagrams" on the Puma infantry fighting vehicle, ranging from A for "failed sensor on the hydro-cooling system" to Z for "two cables with torn insulation".

Only then comes the real message of the confidential Puma report that the Defense Ministry sent to the Bundestag on Monday. In a few days, it says, the first Puma company, which is intended for NATO's Rapid Reaction Force, will be "technically operational again" and, after "completing a supplementary training phase," will be reintegrated into the NATO force before the end of the first quarter. A second company would be "added" as soon as all the necessary conditions, such as the "availability of spare parts," were met.

It's a good thing that Christine Lambrecht is no longer defense minister. Otherwise, things would have been tight for her by now at the latest. After SPIEGEL revealed in mid-December that all 18 state-of-the-art Puma infantry fighting vehicles used in an exercise had failed, the Social Democrat had hurriedly blamed the industry for the debacle. Now the ministry must concede that it was in fact not the industry but its own troops that "were no longer up to the task."

"As a result, the operators' lack of experience in handling the equipment, deficiencies in logistical support from the military maintenance forces and the failure to increase the involvement of industry teams" contributed to the fact that by the end of the exercise, all Puma were no longer operational, according to the report, which involved troops, army maintenance, industry and the ministry.

For two and a half weeks in early December, armored infantrymen had practiced with the 18 Puma at the armored forces' firing training center in Munster, Lower Saxony. After an "initial wave of failures," the Bundeswehr technicians succeeded for a few days in getting the tanks up and running again, but then "the maintenance capacity was overloaded. In this case, it was not the "severity but the number" of failures that had "overloaded the logistical system available on site."

The report lists 13 minor, 21 medium and one serious damage. These include "worn chain elements" and an "incorrectly mounted main gun," "a defective limit switch on the periscope," a "malfunctioning drive cooling system" and a "defective electronics unit in the MELLS weapon system."

The smoldering fire on a wiring harness, which was apparently improperly fought with a powder extinguisher, is classified as severe damage. Now the tank must be disassembled in parts to remove the extinguishing powder. The exercise showed "that even technically supposedly minor and easily repaired damage could negatively affect the operational usability of the system," according to the statement.

The commander of the 10th Armored Division had reported the Puma debacle in writing to his superiors on the morning of Dec. 15. Since then, the ministry has been driven by the question of how this confidential mail could have been published by SPIEGEL just two days later.
"An outflow into the public network could not be traced."

"Regarding the outflow of information in this matter," the ministry's legal department had been tasked with "conducting an indiscretion search," the report said. Although the original mail had only gone to ten recipients, it had then been distributed to "various organizational mailboxes" in the ministry, so that more than 100 people had had access to it. "An outflow into the public network could not be traced," write the ministry officials, who now want to file criminal charges.

The Bundeswehr does not want to be put off by the difficulties with the Puma. The infantry fighting vehicle is a "highly complex, state-of-the-art weapon system" that represents a "quantum leap in tactical superiority in terms of firepower, mobility and networking," the report concludes. All parties involved agree "despite the surprising setback" that the Puma is the "future for the Army."
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I still maintain that the thing is too complicated and prone to failure. The fact that the massive involvement of the civilian industry in day-to-day maintenance work seems essential already to the operation of the system in peacetime conditions, is a clear indication of this and does not inspire much confidence in the robustness required in a war scenario.


The handling errors also point either to the high complexity of the system, or to massive deficiencies in the quality of troop training. Or both.

I don't like the whole "infantryman of the future" concept. Too remote, a single failure can already put the entire - already small - unit at a severe handicap, because every soldier is so networked and highly specialized that he is practically indispensable. That may be great for SWAT and in small special commando operations - but in "primitive" brute force battles like we are seeing now in Ukraine with massive ongoing shelling from heavy weapons?

Higher troop numbers and slightly lower complexity also has an argument: redundancy.

However, there is no longer any material alternative to the Puma."Doomed to succeed".

[Rockstar]

What the hell?

[Skybird]

^That is probably FDP politician Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann in costume (the wicked stepmother from snow white) during a carnival appearance when she attacked the opposition parties' leaders in rymes.

Leave her alone, she is one of our few better political voices, strongly demanding a much more serious military engagement and more wepaon deliveries since all beginning on and has put the chancellor of the coalition of which she is part on a hot boiling plate repeatedly.

Her family stems from one of Germany's traditional carnival strongholds, Düsseldorf. Carnival is a very serious business there.

She has ties to defence politics and currently has the chair of the parliamentary defence committee, thats why she attacks the government so intensely, though indirectly (her party is part of the coalition).

[Rockstar]

No problem Skybird, a friend of your’s is a friend of mine.

[August]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

No problem Skybird, a friend of your’s is a friend of mine.

Let me get this straight, she dressed up as the Wicked Witch of the West and then gave a political speech in which she attacked her opponents in prose? And she is one of their good politicians?







I guess she matches her country. Ridiculous leaders for a ridiculous people.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by August

I guess she matches her country. Ridiculous leaders for a ridiculous people.

It was not nice said

I'm gonna tell my Momma and she is both bigger and older than you.

She know karate......and some other Japanese word you know.

Markus

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by August

Let me get this straight, she dressed up as the Wicked Witch of the West and then gave a political speech in which she attacked her opponents in prose? And she is one of their good politicians?

That's the Rhineland (Northrhine Westphalia, to be more precise) for you, the region of Germany where you have to wear a uniform if you want to laugh.

[Skybird]

Thats CARNIVAL.

Politicians do not only get targetted during carnival by irnocic omemnts and jokes at their cost, but also participate in it like many normal citizens, too. In some regions, carnival is a holiday, shops are closed, big festivities ihn the street, plenty of parties, cabaret shows.

Its not my thing, but its what it is. Karneval. Fasching. A bit like Halloween. Just XXL-sized. And far too serious a matter to laugh about.

It comes and it goes. In the end, in Germany its just a limited season for dressing like a fool and do foolish stuff. In America, you can dress and behave like a Donald and do like fools do day in, day out, year in, year out. So no reason to mock Germany for its timely limited "Karneval" - it could be worse.

[August]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

That's the Rhineland (Northrhine Westphalia, to be more precise) for you, the region of Germany where you have to wear a uniform if you want to laugh.

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Thats CARNIVAL.

Politicians do not only get targetted during carnival by irnocic omemnts and jokes at their cost, but also participate in it like many normal citizens, too. In some regions, carnival is a holiday, shops are closed, big festivities ihn the street, plenty of parties, cabaret shows.

Its not my thing, but its what it is. Karneval. Fasching. A bit like Halloween. Just XXL-sized. And far too serious a matter to laugh about.

It comes and it goes. In the end, in Germany its just a limited season for dressing like a fool and do foolish stuff. In America, you can dress and behave like a Donald and do like fools do day in, day out, year in, year out. So no reason to mock Germany for its timely limited "Karneval" - it could be worse.

It's NOT all of Germany, please.


It's the Ruhr area, where people are strictly catholic for eleven months a year and go all bonkers in the one remaining month.


The Bavarians and Swabians have fun whenever they think their catholic God isn't looking at them (which is surprisingly often), and here in the north (in former Prussia) we laugh once the work is done.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

It's NOT all of Germany, please.


It's the Ruhr area, where people are strictly catholic for eleven months a year and go all bonkers in the one remaining month.


The Bavarians and Swabians have fun whenever they think their catholic God isn't looking at them (which is surprisingly often), and here in the north (in former Prussia) we laugh once the work is done.

Swabians? Years ago I met a girl from Germany. When I lived on a boat I had a dog that I named Swab as in ‘swabby’ a.k.a. a sailor. She rolled her eyes and laughed when I told her, saying that in Germany Swab or Swabians were thought to be, well, considered sort of as not too bright and low rent. I replied that pretty much describes my dog too.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

It's NOT all of Germany, please.

Except Berlin, there you have the Berlin interpretation of the topic 365 days a year.


You have "Rosenmontagsumzüge" practically in all parts of Germany, and "Karnevallsgesellschaften", and "Festzelte". The Ruhr area is only the outstanding hotspot, but it is not the exclusive German carnival zone. Pretty much like the Oktoberfest's original hotspot is Munich, but you have smaller copies of it practically everywhere in Germany now. Even in Berlin.

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Except Berlin, there you have the Berlin interpretation of the topic 365 days a year.


You have "Rosenmontagsumzüge" practically in all parts of Germany, and "Karnevallsgesellschaften", and "Festzelte". The Ruhr area is only the outstanding hotspot, but it is not the exclusive German carnival zone. Pretty much like the Oktoberfest's original hotspot is Munich, but you have smaller copies of it practically everywhere in Germany now. Even in Berlin.

"Rosenmontagsumzüge" (basically costumed people walking around the roads on Shrove Monday) are common in the catholic parts of Germany, but very rare in the protestant north, where this is usually only done by children (up to about age ten).

[Skybird]

Neue Zürcher Zeitung:

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The Lord of the Leopard

Frank Haun was the head of tank manufacturer Krauss-Maffei Wegmann for a good 15 years. It was there that the Leopard 2A6 was developed, and it is about to undergo its baptism of fire in Ukraine. Haun is looking forward to the mission with mixed feelings. There will be casualties, he says.

Frank Haun could be triumphant. Wars are won on the ground, that's always been the case. I said: Tanks are not fossils, the day will come when you will need them again. But you wouldn't listen. Now you have the receipt.

He could say that, and one could not blame him. Almost every day, politicians, generals and journalists contact him and ask how quickly he can deliver. Haun is the head of tank manufacturer KNDS, an alliance of Germany's Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and France's Nexter. For years, he warned against dismantling too many tanks in Western armies. But he doesn't want to look back. He prefers to look ahead.

Germany's battle tanks face baptism of fire

Germany and other NATO countries want to send the Leopard tank to Ukraine. In a few weeks, one of the world's best battle tanks will experience its baptism of fire in high-intensity combat. Then we will see what it can really do. So far, the Leopard 2 has been used mainly in exercises in the North German Plain, for example. Canadians and Danes had it in Afghanistan for some time, but never in a scenario like Ukraine. "If we know how to teach the Ukrainians how to use the Leopard tank properly, then it will be able to make its impact," Haun says. "But yes, there will certainly be casualties."

When he joined Krauss-Maffei Wegmann in Munich in 2003 and became CEO three years later, he made further development of the Leopard 2 one of his most important projects. It was a time when Krauss-Maffei Wegmann was only producing one-offs because hardly anyone was ordering main battle tanks. It was no longer a matter of mass, as in the Cold War, but of equipping fewer tanks in such a way that they were clearly technically superior to an opponent. The result was the Leopard 2A6.

Nothing symbolizes war better than a tank like this. The steel colossus on tracks combines what is needed on the battlefield: Assertiveness from its 120-millimeter gun, mobility from its 1500-horsepower engine, and protection from its armor. Of the approximately 9500 "Main Battle Tanks" in Europe (Russia and Belarus excluded), 32 percent are made by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann. But for three decades, Western politicians and authoritative military leaders hardly wanted to hear about the advantages of a tank.

A few years ago, Haun reports, he talked with experts in Washington about how war was changing. One interlocutor explained that they no longer enter the combat zone with aircraft because they have no chance against modern air defense systems such as the Russian S400. Ground troops equipped with heavy weapons are still indispensable for winning a war.

Haun fell on deaf ears in Berlin

But in Berlin, his argument fell on deaf ears. Politicians and the military did not want his tanks, howitzers and anti-aircraft guns even when Russia invaded the Donbass in 2014 and Putin was already counting on the mass deployment of tanks and artillery. Everyone saw that the German army had nothing to counter this, Haun says. But politicians and many generals would have preferred to buy planes, helicopters and ships.

That is having an impact today. Of 320 battle tanks in the Bundeswehr, only about 130 are operational. Every single one that is now being handed over to Ukraine weakens Germany's defense capability. It's a state of affairs that Haun also blames himself for. "Obviously, in all those years in Berlin, I did not communicate in such a way that I was understood and something was changed. That is my failure," he says.

As the head of one of Germany's most important defense contractors, he has good access in Berlin. For example, when McKinsey consultant Katrin Suder was brought to the German Defense Ministry by Ursula von der Leyen in August 2014 to reform weapons procurement, he brought her a recommendation at the get-to-know-you meeting. "You must see the film 'Pentagon Wars,' you will be amazed," he had said to her.

"Pentagon Wars" describes the grotesque but true story of the procurement of the Bradley infantry fighting vehicle in the USA. For over 17 years, the American military made ever new, ever more absurd demands on the vehicle without the Pentagon intervening. In the end, the development had swallowed up 14 billion dollars. When they met again a few weeks later, Suder asked him, Haun recalls, if things were as bad in Germany. "We're better, of course, Madam Secretary of State," he had replied smugly.

The Puma's troubles scratch its reputation

The events in "Pentagon Wars" are not so far removed from Haun's own story. What was the Bradley disaster for the Americans almost happened to the Germans with the Puma. The Bundeswehr kept coming up with new ideas for the infantry fighting vehicle, while questionable standards for civilian vehicles burdened and delayed development. Haun knew that this tank could only be built on the edge of what was technically feasible.

But he went along with it because Krauss-Maffei Wegmann needed the order. The difficulties cost his company a lot of money and scratched its reputation. Nonetheless, he considers the Puma a "great tank," with its computer-aided concept a bridging technology with regard to the main battle tank of the future.

Haun's current company, KNDS, founded eight years ago as a joint venture between Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and Nexter, is to build this innovative, state-of-the-art main battle tank system. After a few years of dual German-French leadership, Haun took over sole management in 2020 and has since presided over a company that he believes is the only one in the EU still producing main battle tanks. The British, the French, the Italians - they all stopped production years ago, he says. "We are the only ones still producing tanks at the moment."

Relationship with Rheinmetall is poisoned

This statement is a jab at the West German competition. The Düsseldorf-based Rheinmetall Group unveiled its own main battle tank last year and also advertises itself as a tank manufacturer. But the hull, transmission and running gear are derived from the Leopard 2, which is why Haun believes it is not a tank system developed entirely by Rheinmetall.

But this is not the only reason why the climate between the two major companies is poisoned. In the past, there have been repeated announcements or rumors regarding a takeover of Krauss-Maffei Wegmann by Rheinmetall. While the two companies compete on the battle tank, they are partners on the Puma infantry fighting vehicle and other projects. Rheinmetall is also involved in the Franco-German main battle tank of the future. KNDS and the Düsseldorf-based group mutually claim leadership in the billion-dollar project.

German politicians, who for years have been advocating a merger of the two companies to form a "European champion," are now watching the dispute between the two companies with increasing annoyance. "We would like to have a strong German land systems company. But that is also being prevented by the two egos in the executive suites," says an experienced defense politician.

The Ukraine war is ensuring that order books are filling up at both companies. In January, Frank Haun turned 64. He has rarely been in as much demand as he is now. In the past, he had to justify himself for building weapons. Today, he has to defend himself against accusations that he produces the weapons too slowly.

"Without chips, I can't get a tank off the yard".

A few days ago, German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius announced his intention to replace the 14 Leopard 2A6s for Ukraine with new tanks as soon as possible. That will be difficult. Krauss-Maffei Wegmann is currently producing 44 Leopard 2A7s for Hungary. Last week, an order for 54 tanks came in from Norway. Other countries are likely to follow soon. "In the next year or two, we expect orders for several hundred new or combat-grade Leopard 2s," Haun says.

Many NATO countries that are handing over the Leopard 2 or other models to Ukraine want to restock their fleets as quickly as possible. This will not fail because of his company's capacities, says Haun. The conversation with him takes place at Krauss-Maffei Wegmann's headquarters in Munich. Behind the building stretches the factory grounds with their halls, roads and parking areas where tanks or other vehicles are parked. When Haun steps up to the window of the meeting room, he looks out over the production halls. "Down there," he says, gesturing vaguely out with his hand, "is the Leopard line. We can ramp it up in no time. Capacity is not the problem."

Something else is difficult, he said, and he recently explained this to German Chancellor Olaf Scholz when he asked him about bottlenecks in production. In the case of a Leopard tank, Haun said, the bottlenecks are mainly in the so-called long-running parts, such as the gun barrel. They come from suppliers, and it is difficult to shorten their production. But he is even more concerned about the availability of microchips. The Leopard 2 needs them primarily for navigation and optics, he said. "Without chips, I can't get a tank off the yard anymore."

This looming bottleneck is worrying not only Haun, but the entire German economy. An attack by China on Taiwan, the chip workbench of the Western world, could further exacerbate the situation. Haun has been a member of the advisory board of the Munich Security Conference for many years. There he regularly meets security policy experts. Many of them, he says, are of the opinion that it is no longer a question of whether a Chinese invasion will take place, but only of when. If an attack were to occur, he says, Germany would be almost solely dependent on the U.S. as a chip supplier.

"Battle-tested" as a selling point for a tank

In mid-February, when the Security Conference is held again in Munich, the advisory board will also meet for the next time. Last year, Haun said, he had the impression that the majority of members didn't want to know about the impending Russian invasion of Ukraine. "There were people who thought Putin was just letting his 150,000 troops practice on the Russian-Ukrainian border," he says.

A year later, the Leopard 2 is facing its first major wartime deployment. "Combat proven," this seal is an important selling point for any weapons manufacturer. But that's not how Haun puts it. He says, "From the use of our weapons, we can draw valuable conclusions about their effectiveness in combat, so we can then make them even better."

And what will he think when the Russians cheer the first Leopard 2 destroyed? "Success and failure are part of war," he says.
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[Catfish]

Every tenth german would defend Germany against a military attack, every fourth would leave the country, according to a survey this week.

Maybe anglo-saxon reeducation successfully cut off .. umm anything that was left after WW2