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Old 06-12-07, 03:52 PM   #16
bigboywooly
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:rotfl:
You might know it as PMT Jim

:rotfl:
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Old 06-12-07, 03:56 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbuna
I am shocked mel
This kind of viewpoint/opinion is certainly out of sync with the UN/peacemaker image

Sinking neutrals was then and still is now akin/similar to an illegal act/war crime as defined in every interpretation of the the Geneva Convention

IMHO the very least GWX can do to penalise the player is to set a 'negative renown' tariff against the transgressor
I don't think it was seen as a war crime even then. There is more neccessery to be considered neutral than just flying the flag of a neutral country. There were many neutral ships sunk in escorted convois or for other reasons that made them fair game, not a single case was ever prosecuted either during or after the war.
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Old 06-12-07, 04:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboywooly
:rotfl:
You might know it as PMT Jim

:rotfl:
But my periods ended months ago after I had the hysterectomy

BTW Hunter ICX is over on TS calling you worse than a pickpocket to a new member from Lithuania :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Old 06-12-07, 04:07 PM   #19
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Damn clog hopping tulip muncher
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Old 06-12-07, 04:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danurve
Certainly seems like the modders are more uptight about their files being edited then the players being upset about neutral ships in convoys. And perhaps they have a right to be considering the work done for free. I certainly wouldn't want work I did re-edited then distributed that way. But then again I don't belive that is the point. The question basically was why the punishment in the game, which was answered.
If you're talking about the exchange I had with Jim you're wrong. We just had a nice discussion and we both expressed our opinions. We are not uptight and we always believe that the most important part of the game is to have fun. I don't see what Jim or I said can be considered as uptight. In any case as you said the question is answered so we can all go play and enjoy the game with or without renown punishment
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Old 06-12-07, 06:44 PM   #21
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[quote=Henri II]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbuna
I am shocked mel
This kind of viewpoint/opinion is certainly out of sync with the UN/peacemaker image

Sinking neutrals was then and still is now akin/similar to an illegal act/war crime as defined in every interpretation of the the Geneva Convention

IMHO the very least GWX can do to penalise the player is to set a 'negative renown' tariff against the transgressor
I don't think it was seen as a war crime even then. There is more neccessery to be considered neutral than just flying the flag of a neutral country. There were many neutral ships sunk in escorted convois or for other reasons that made them fair game, not a single case was ever prosecuted either during or after the war.

/quote]


During WWII, both sides made gross violations of neutrality. THE U.S. was a blantant violator, especialy when the USN began hostilities against U Boats. Germany and Spain, in turn , did violate neutrality by using interned ships to supply U-Boats.

But sinking neutrals without orders didn't do a U-Boat commander any good to his reputation, therefore penalizing for sinking neutrals in the game makes sense. You loose face, renown or whatever you want to call it.
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Old 06-12-07, 07:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danurve
Certainly seems like the modders are more uptight about their files being edited then the players being upset about neutral ships in convoys. And perhaps they have a right to be considering the work done for free. I certainly wouldn't want work I did re-edited then distributed that way.
@Danurve,
Incorrect. This issue was resolved concerning the renown issue interpretation for neutrals in GW/GWX many moons ago, after recurring debates on this very issue. My statement concerning the un-modified version of the GWX mod files was intended to clarify matters concerning GWX itself, for any who care... It was not intended to dictate to anyone, how they may or may not mod their personal files.

Players will do what players will do. Your statement muddies the water.

Besides, if GWX users and builders agreed on everything... life would be pretty dull IMHO. Some of the best things in GWX have come as a result of debate.

It might surprise you to find that I was initially against adding the Black Sea and Indian Ocean operational theaters to GWX. I thought it was too risky.
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Old 06-12-07, 11:21 PM   #23
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Kpt. Lehmann, You are certainly entitled to your opinion as am I. But thank you for taking time to further explain your thoughts. Although I thought in a way I was defending what modders put into said files after reading your post it occurs to me I need not bother. I don't mod much at all, just some jazz to my liking and so perhaps it's not my place to comment about the modders feelings. It seems strange though if indeed it was resolved why some of the senior members here had such reactions to the thread. That kind of water is just as muddy. Perhaps it matters not as I belive we can agree it is the players game.

Just on the side I think the Indian ocean addition gives GWX a distinct advantage.
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Old 06-13-07, 12:37 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danurve
Kpt. Lehmann, You are certainly entitled to your opinion as am I. But thank you for taking time to further explain your thoughts. Although I thought in a way I was defending what modders put into said files after reading your post it occurs to me I need not bother. I don't mod much at all, just some jazz to my liking and so perhaps it's not my place to comment about the modders feelings. It seems strange though if indeed it was resolved why some of the senior members here had such reactions to the thread. That kind of water is just as muddy. Perhaps it matters not as I belive we can agree it is the players game.
Danurve, the thing is that the decision implemented in GWX compliments the grey contacts and the necessity to identify a target before destroying it.

Additionally, changing that method in GWX would break that system... and the need to identify targets. A decision was made and the project moved forward and beyond it. It will remain the same.

Nothing muddy about that. You can't please all the people all the time.

Players that wish to change it in their files can do so by changing the following element in the Basic.Cfg: (file segment is from stock SH3... but it matters not)

[RENOWN]
RenownReachGridObjCompleted=500
RenownPatrolGridObjCompleted=200
CompletedPatrol=100
NEUTRAL=-1 <----Change this value to "0"
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-10
WrongShipSunk=-5000
FirstRankRenown=1000
SecondRankRenown=3500
EndCampaign=-5000

Changing the above value will remove the penalty for sinking neutrals.

Also, if I recall correctly, neutral tonnage is still added to your total. (feels like cheating to me... to purposefully sink neutrals)
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Old 06-13-07, 11:14 AM   #25
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Yeaup that is the edit alright.
Been there done that a while ago but I don't go about sinking lone neutrals, merchat or not. I do however have no mercy for neutrals clearly moving war materials in a convoy being escorted. Ok whats on the decks is just graphics or eye-candy but it adds an element to the game I like.
You may be correct about the tonnage, that is worth checking next time out. Ehhh, having said all that they are still secondary.
I guess it's not unusuall to have a shortcut just for editing that file. I've removed SS from deck-gun and added the amount to HE (another personal edit).

Added a sub-page to the community manual about sinking neutral ships for informational purpose. Used the edit info you provided if you don't mind.
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Old 06-13-07, 12:16 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melnibonian
Quote:
Originally Posted by danurve
Certainly seems like the modders are more uptight about their files being edited then the players being upset about neutral ships in convoys. And perhaps they have a right to be considering the work done for free. I certainly wouldn't want work I did re-edited then distributed that way. But then again I don't belive that is the point. The question basically was why the punishment in the game, which was answered.
If you're talking about the exchange I had with Jim you're wrong. We just had a nice discussion and we both expressed our opinions. We are not uptight and we always believe that the most important part of the game is to have fun. I don't see what Jim or I said can be considered as uptight. In any case as you said the question is answered so we can all go play and enjoy the game with or without renown punishment
I thought the sigs might of been a bit of a giveaway

BTW mel.....galley duty for you my old son....be a good boy and do as COB says
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Old 06-13-07, 03:12 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbuna
BTW mel.....galley duty for you my old son....be a good boy and do as COB says
Yes Sir. At your Orders Sir :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Old 08-09-07, 06:48 AM   #28
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Sorry to reopen this old thread.

When playing GWX you get this message shortly after war breaks out in 1939

"1939/09/03|U-BOAT WARFARE AGAINST SHIPPING IS AT PRESENT TO BE CARRIED OUT IN ACCORDANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL RULES. ATTACKS ARE TO BE AIMED AT SHIPS WHICH, BY THE PROTOCOL, MAY BE SUNK WITHOUT WARNING: 1.TROOPSHIPS, I.E. VESSELS WHICH ARE OBSERVED TO BE CARRYING TROOPS OR WAR MATERIAL, OR WHICH MAY BE IDENTIFIED IN OTHER WAYS. 2.ANY VESSEL ESCORTED BY ENEMY WARSHIPS OR AIRCRAFT. 3.VESSELS TAKING PART IN ENEMY ACTIONS OR ACTING IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF ENEMY OPERATIONS."

Seems to me that according to item 2, neutral US merchants headed to Britain as part of a British escorted convoy are totally fair game and shouldn't be penalised at all.

Is this how it worked historically?
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Old 08-09-07, 09:56 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danurve
...I do however have no mercy for neutrals clearly moving war materials in a convoy being escorted. Ok whats on the decks is just graphics or eye-candy but it adds an element to the game I like...
I agree, in my latest case it wasn't a cargo, but I sank a tanker that way. There were actually two of 'em, but just like in Das Boot, they doubled up. Besides, I was feeling very happy about penetrating the middle of the convoy and franticly firing away :rotfl:
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Old 08-09-07, 10:20 AM   #30
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1943 TOTAL WAR

Sink them all.
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