LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod

[LuftWolf]

I have sent the v2.0 distribution to Bill.

I decided not to alter the Kilo Imp sonars in this version.

Here is the readme, with comment added by Amizaur.

LuftWolf and Amizaur’s Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod v2.0
Hosted by www.subguru.com
Readme by LuftWolf
Comments by Amizaur

Amizaur has made a more substantial and significant contribution to the creation of this mod than me. Thank you to finiteless, Ludger, and jsteed for their contributions to modding DW. Thank you to Bill “Subguru� Nichols for hosting the work of so many talents modders and mission designers.

All doctrines by Amizaur.

The purpose of this mod is, straightforwardly, to address the aspects of DW game-play that most bother its authors, while improving the simulation experience and fixing bugs, without introducing any new ones. Thank you in advance for downloading this mod. Please send as much feedback as you can via the dedicated thread on the www.subsim.com main forum, http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...=41581&start=0.

INSTALLATION: Unzip the file into your Dangerous Waters directory, the Database files and Doctrine files will install to the proper directories on their own. I recommend backing up your Database and Doctrine folders before making any changes. If you decide to uninstall this mod, all you have to do is to restore backed up Database and Doctrine folders.

Note: This mod represents substantial changes to DW core game-play, and as such, will probably require fine-tuning in subsequent versions to particular values based on game-play experiences. However, such is the case precisely because, we feel, it represents a quantum leap towards bringing out the full potential of the massive and dynamic DW engine in terms of providing the feel of a quality simulation experience for both those new to the simulation genre and weathered deep blue warriors. Please send us AAR’s and comments in as great a quantity as you can! We would be especially encouraged to hear from players in the multiplayer community.

A Sound vs. Speed profile chart and new Ship, Sub, and Torpedo specification table will be released in support of this readme, to cover any specific changes to AI ships or weaponry (such as the complete listing of sonar parameter assignments) not covered in this document, however, I have taken to care to note the most important specific parameter changes to user platforms and weapons.

v2.0

Game-Play Changes

Sonar:

Passive Sonar—Amizaur has changed all passive sensors to have a virtually unlimited detection range potential, meaning that very loud contacts will be detected at very distant ranges, and there is no sudden “spike� when very loud contacts come into detection range. Detection performance against quiet targets is unchanged, as the majority of contacts are acquired under the previous maximum range of most user-platform sensors.
The range is not unlimited, the “invisible walls� of det curves are not entirely removed, but set to so high values that should not limit sonar range in any situation, set to max theoretical det range vs most noisy target + 20-30% more in some cases to be sure (like Kilo sonars).

Active Sonar—Amizaur has been able to reduce the detection range of the DICASS active detection on submarines to something under max range, so now it is possible for the sub player to avoid detection within the range of the sonar by lowering speed and showing a low aspect to the active sonar array. This change represents a fundamental database correction for the “active sonar bug� currently in DW v1.01 and should help balance the game until the fix is hard-coded in the next official patch, especially aiding Kilo players in attacking surface targets undetected, as previously it was almost impossible to stalk a convoy.
Well I will write that it’s only half-solution (in fact 10% solution) and it’s VERY far from perfect, but this is best I could achieve with current sonar model and at least in some cases and for some targets the range will be lower than maximal. But the active sonar bug still is in the game and it’s the most important DW bug currently. As jsteed said, there is somwhere x10 factor in the equation (or someone simply set period in wrong place – so it should be EXTREMLY easy to fix by SCS programmer !!!) and minimal change in target SL result in great detection range difference. So we still have to wait for the SCX fix to have proper active sonar model, but with those changes Kilo drivers at least stand a chance against air units �

AI Sonar (Thank you to Periscope Depth for input on this aspect of the mod)— I have added sensors to all sonar-bearing platforms that reflect realistic sonars. I have done this in the following method. Divided the sonars into three catagories: Western, Modern Russian/Soviet-Nuclear, Eastern Diesel/Old Eastern Block. From the Western, I made three scaled versions each of the Sphere, Hull, and TA sonars from the 688i sensors, and assigned them to each platform in the game with Western sonars, according to level and whether they had a TA. I then did the same for the Modern Russian, borrowing from the Akula Sensors, assigning them to nuclear submarines with modern Eastern Sonar. The Kilo array model I used for diesels with eastern sonars and old submarines, which are mostly eastern. For surface platform sonars, I have used the FFG sonar as a model.

The primary difference between the Western and Eastern sonars are the washout speed. The best Russian arrays are more sensitive than the worst Western arrays (still good), but the Western arrays maintain a signal at a higher speed. The new Eastern sonars and the old Eastern sonars differ in terms of their maximum range, the Kilo sensors I used for the model are much shorter range than the Akula sensors.

A separate chart listing sonars, assignments, and detection parameters will most likely be released subsequent to the mod after further testing.

Object Sound and Sound vs. Speed Fix (for sound levels credit also to finiteless, jsteed, and Periscope Depth; research, final design, and implementation by Amizaur)—Amizaur has completely reworked the object sounds and the sound vs. speed behavior for realistic effects. Submarines and ships are realistically quiet across platforms and have been assigned varying speed-noise curves. New SSNs have different speed curves from old SSNs. SSBNs are relatively quiet at max speed (well they just not grow so much like fast subs, because they are slower, can’t add same amount of noise for 25kts sub like for 35kts sub). Old diesels are quiet when stopped but very noisy when moving at speed, and the latest SSKs are very quiet. In addition, all surface platforms have been assigned more realistic speed-noise curves based on max speed, and American ships, especially the OHP FFG, are quieter than before relative to other platforms. Specifically, the OHP does not increase noise above stationary level until it is running above 10kts (this was in the game from the start, just nobody noticed it untill seen in Ludger’s Analyzer). The Akula II, SeaWolf, and 688i have a somewhat flat curve from 0-4kts, meaning there sound levels do not change in those speed ranges. Please see the separate Sound vs. Speed Chart for specifics.

Playable Passive Sonar Parameters—All playable passive sonar arrays have changed to have a Maximum detection of height of 10m. Previously hull sonars and buoys had a Max of 0m and sphere and towed arrays had a max of 300m. This caused any object with a passive sound level to show up on sonar as if it were underwater, specifically sea-skimming missiles whose sound levels were changed in this mod to simulate underwater missile launch (Thank you TLAM Strike for finding this). I have not set the depths to 0m because this causes contacts to display inconsistently on the BB waterfall. I do not believe that cone sensitivity is effected in any way by this fix within the detection Max and Mins, but there could be other issues I am not aware of. This may be refined later, but it is necessary now to address persistent sea-skimming missile transients.

Torpedos:

Amizaur has been able to make significant improvements to torpedo function.

TorpHoming Doctrine—This doctrine completely disables torpedo explosions on countermeasures. The torpedo, after acquiring a dropped decoy, will pass through the decoy and re-enable on the other side. Sometimes the torpedo will demonstrate odd behavior immediately after being spoofed, as could be realistic, but should always return to seeking properly if within its max range. Note: some of the TEST-71s on the Kilos use the wakehoming doctrine, so their behavior is unaffected by this mod.

Torpedo Doctrine—The updated version of this doctrine: reduces the search arc of the snake pattern for torpedoes from +/- 45 to 30 degrees; randomizes the circle or first snake turn direction, and, most importantly, prevents AI torpedoes launched against submerged targets from striking surface ships 90% of the time, by lowering the minimum depth of AI launched torpedoes.

Torpedo Seekers—Amizaur has modeled a wide range of active and passive seekers, with individual seekers for the most important torpedoes, including distinctive ping frequencies for classification over active intercept, as is realistic. The ADCAP active seeker is max range 3000m and its passive seeker is max range 1000m, will all other torpedoes scaled down from there, meaning there has been a significant reduction in the effectiveness of all torpedo weapons to reflect realistic parameters. Note: the parameters of all of the torpedo seekers have been tweaked so that thermal layers have a much greater effect on torpedo performance. Also, the width of seekers cones of the ADCAP and USGT have been increased to minimize the effect of the reduced snake search pattern on the effectiveness of these weapons. Some small warship active sonar levels have been increased to make the new seekers effective against them and very small civilian ships are nearly invisible to active torpedoes now, due to seeker changes.

Counter Measure Effectiveness—The effectiveness of launched anti-torpedo CM’s has been reduced to 40%. In addition, to emphasize, torpedoes will no longer explode on decoys. We feel that the reduction in CM effectiveness is necessitated by the much closer detection range of all sonar systems on quiet platforms do to reduction in over all sound level which changes game-play significantly, especially the great reduction in torpedo seeker ranges, as well as the greater effect of thermal layers. This and all aspects of the mod are welcome to community input for future changes, so please send as much feedback as you can!

Torpedo Sensor Feedback—ADCAP, USGT, and TEST-71 family of wire-guided torpedoes have been equipped with ability to send sensor feedback to the launching platform similar to the UUV. Targets marked by the torpedo sensors will be marked with a T prefix, and will be accounted for by the TMA just like other sensor tracks. Please send as much feedback as possible about this particular feature of the mod, as it can be extremely helpful in hunting lone subs at range, but in crowded contact environments can lead to a large number of extra tracks, especially with multiple torpedo launches. I have to say, this feature is extremely cool, but makes some mess on the screen sometimes �

WakeHoming Doctrine—Amizaur has reduced somewhat the effectiveness of wake-homing torpedoes by shortening the detection range of their sensor, especially for frontal shots against ships, which now much be made much more accurately. In general, the effect of this doctrine is to make wake-homing torpedoes something less than the 99% effective they were before, especially against targets that make effective evasive maneuvers. Also, all strictly wakehoming torpedoes have altered to be fired only against identified surface targets.

Well I think it not exactly this way. I didn’t mean to reduce effectiveness, this is only side effect. What I wanted to do was to make them TRUE wakehomers. They had visual sensor with a range of something like 500m, so when they seen a target within 500m they started to home on it even head-on. So i reduced range of the visual sensor to something like 50m, so the torpedo will see the ship only if it practicly runs into it, in last few seconds before detonation. So the wakehoming routine has to guide torpedo all the way and terminal seeker is used only for last 50m lock-on and detonation. So now when torpedo passes 100m ahed of ship, it would not acquire it like before – there is no wake ahead of the ship. Now you have to use it like wakehomer and only wakehomer, so aim BEHIND a target, not at him. Head-on shot sometimes works but rarely and have to be very precise. Side effect is only this that SOMETIMES when the target maneuvers and torpedo follow it’s wake zig-zag’ing it may lose the wake in last moment and take over the ship, or fell outside a square corner if the ship turned hard, so that’s why effectiveness can be SOMETIMES lower against maneuvering targets (or the target have chance to evade sometimes by hard maneuvers �). I think this is realistic if the real torpedos are strictly wake-homers. If they have additional passive sonar seeker and switch to passive homing when wake guides them close enough, maneuvers would not help, but I don’t know it they have secondary sensor and this would mean that you could try to evade one by hard turn and all-stop, trying to stop emitting noise. 53-65K makes 55kts and I’m sure that even if there is passive sensor, it’s very insensitive at that speed.

Fast Torpedo Speed Oscillation Fix—Due to a hard-coded error in the DW v1.01 engine, all torpedoes from speeds 56-159 display a wide speed oscillation and or increased speed. We cannot change this directly, however, the speeds of all torpedoes over 55kts have been reduced to 55kts and compensated with more realistic parameters.
ADCAP—Speed raised in v1.03 of our mod to 60kts. Lowered again to 55kts and given the best seeker in the mod as well as torpedo sensor feedback.
Spearfish—Range increased by 10,000m to 32km.
Type 89—Reduced turn radius to 100 (as all other torpedos) as previously high turn radius is now unnecessary with lower speed. Increased range by 15,000m to 45km and given it ASuW capability.
Type 40—Increased range of SS-N-27 ASW family of subroc missiles to 27nm, as is realistic.
APR-2E—range increased from 3.2km to 5km. (hmm ok. but you could set them to 60kts and get stable 63kts speed)


Damage Modeling:

All values for neutral and supply ships have been adjusted to make them more realistic in terms of the damage they will sustain. Light civilian ships are made more fragile and heavier ships are made realistically difficult to sink. Heavy military supply ships are made slightly more sturdy than the OH Perry Class FFG. Medium supply ships and oil tankers are slightly less rugged than the OHP, medium civilian ships have been made slightly tougher. Expect to have to use several medium and light torpedoes or missiles against heavy shipping now, with more necessity to be careful in wasting weapons when facing a convoy. Please see the separate platform specifications table to be released soon after the release of the mod for details. (IMO damage of great vessels like Supertanker or Cruise Ship should be even larger, so at least two 53-65K or one 65cm torpedo would be needed)
Also we didn’t change damage points of subs yet ! Look at Typhoon, it have same value as Kilo !!!!! Typhoon value could be set so that one ADCAP would make only 60% of damage, two would sink it. Oscar little lower. Damage points of Stingray are too small, and for Mk-50 are much too big IMO, this was meaned that it is very effective in sinking subs, but as a side effect it’s too good at sinking OHPs and other surface ships too. In further reviewing the database, we have decided to rework the damage modeling for most warships as well, with heavier ships of better build being modeled with appropriate levels of survivability. Expect some ships to be a little more difficult to sink and some ships to be a little easier in a sensible and predictable way. Please refer to the unit information tables to be released following the release of the mod for details.

Masts and Cables:

Periscope Depth’s Cable Length Mod—Thank you to Periscope Depth for providing this. The length of user-platform cables have been changed to real-world lengths: SQR-19/TB-29/23—5000ft, MH-60 Dipping Sonar—2500ft, and Pelamida TA—2300/701m.

Universal Doctrine Fixes:


SubAvoidxx-- Doctrines correct a bug in sub evasion routines that tells them to come too
shallow while evading, causing cavitation. Well tested.

Missle/MissleSam-- Corrects minor bugs in missile launch angles. Well tested.

SubrocAttack-- Improves accuracy of Subroc torpedo drop points.

CIWSAttack.txt-- Directs ships to fire a barrage of missles at "hard" targets,
ALPHA very close or very fast. It is your choice to include this, you can backup
your original CIWSAttack.txt doctrine and change the name of the file
included. I have played with this, and it definately makes ships launch more
SAM's at incoming vampires. I have yet to encounter any bugs with it.





Missile Parameters:

Passive Signature for Underwater Missile Launch--All sub-launched missles now produce a very noisy transient when launched. The exception to this is the Harpoon, which is much quieter,simulating its launch from a canister which opens up once it gets to the surface, making it a better option verse the TASM than previously.***Underwater missile launches will not give a TIW or any other audio warning.*** Thank you Bellman for raising this issue and Fish for confirming it over a LAN. Also, Amizaur has include a doctrine addition to the general submarine avoidance doctrine that allows subs to recognize underwater missile launches and evade under parameters in which it could be a subroc attack, giving AI subs a better chance of clearing the target datum and surviving subroc attack.


IR Signatures-
IR signatures added for all missles based on type, with a reasonable scaling from
seaskimming cruise-missles to supersonic, rocket powered anti-ship missles. This now
makes RAMs effective against anti-ship missles.

Amizaur's MANPAD Seeker Fix-
We have included the fix that has been around for sometime, reducing the seeker cone
of MANPADs to 3 degrees.

Radar Heights Changed—Some radar heights have been lowered, as previously some ships
BETA had been able to see too far over the horizon. Also, the minimum altitude
of the AEGIS SPY-1 Radar has been lowered from 5000ft to 10ft, which should
help them better track sea-skimming vampires.

Launched Anti-Missile CM's—effectiveness raised from 20% to 25%.(Thank you Mau for
suggesting this.)

MAD/SAD:

MAD—sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -1000.ft

SAD—sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -750ft. Note:
the only difference between a MAD and SAD detection in the game is the depth at which
they are detected, so if I set the depths the same, the sensors would be exactly the
same sensor,as the platforms only vary in MAD characteristic, and have no separate SAD
characteristic).

AI MAD—AI platforms do not have a separate MAD/SAD detector. Previously, they had been setto detect from 0 to -3000ft. In order to permit realistic evasion tactics from MAD
equipped AI air platforms, I have set the AI MAD sensor to have SAD characteristics
(have fun under those funky sounding cargo ships!)

User Platform, Weapon, and Sensor Specific Changes

User Torpedo Specification Changes: (Thank you to Bellman for raising the issue of torpedo balancing)

53cm Torpedo—given UGST specifications: Active/Passive Multipurpose Wireguided Torpedo, 50km@50kph, with maximum depth 800m (less on fire-control preset panel) with 300kg warhead (vs. MK48 ADCAP 850m depth w/350kg warhead).

(sorry I changed ADCAP depth to 1000m, Mk-48 was 850m ADCAP has been cleared for more). Also I think if ADCAP should maybe have more damage points because of advanced fuse, for example 350kg under keel is much worse than near the side, and is said to be capable of sinking all but the biggest ships (lets’s say Kirov or Slava should require two).

65cm Torpedo—guidance sensor and doctrine changed to simulate 65-76 Wakehoming Hydrogen Peroxide-powered Torpedo (the type supposedly removed after the Kursk Incident). All specifications have been left the same except guidance-following the wakehome doctrine now-and the the wire has been removed. The wire-guidance option has been disable in-game, but I can't change the fire-control graphics, so you'll just have to remember that the A/P and search pattern buttons do nothing, and that the torpedo will continue in a straigh line after it enables. LAUNCH THE TORPEDO WITH THE DEPTH SET AT ~10m, depending on how lucky you feel that day. The Nixie should not affect this weapon in any way, but over-the-side decoys will cause enough of a disturbance in the water to distrupt the wakehoming, but the torpedo will not detonate on the CM's, and usually reaquire. (add that it should be aimed behind a target, not at target !!)

Mk46—Given Mk54 hypothetical specs, 17km@50kts with max depth 500m and a light weight, for airdrop use in littoral waters (the turn radius may be decreased in subsequent versions to further increase this effect). I have given the Mk46 ASW torpedo Mk 46 specs, and swapped out the modded Mk 46 in all non-American platforms and the Mk46 ASROC for the Mk 46 ASW (with Mk46 specs). So in short, all non-American platforms are armed with the standard Mk 46 torpedo they had previously, and all American platforms have upgraded to Mk 54. Again, Mk 46 ASROC has been left the same for all platforms. I thought it wasn't good to have a useless Mk46, so I did some research and came up with a torpedo that is marginally better than the Mk50 all round, but doesn't replace it, reflecting a torpedo with the upgraded propulsion of a Mk46 with the seeker of the Mk50, which constitutes the actual Mk 54 as indicated by my information. As the Navy's intention is to have a lower cost option to the Mk50, the propulsion system of which is very expensive. For me personally, I will be taking more Mk 54's now, unless I need to kill something deep!

53-65 Wake-homing Torpedo Family—The minimum running depth of the torpedo has been set to -14m in order to ensure proper launch depth against surface targets. You can still launch the torpedo from as deeply as before.

Shikval Mad Sensor—The MAD detonator on the Shikval has had its range reduced by half to 250m, as previously any shot within 500m of the target resulted in a kill, this makes it possible to evade one of these weapons if it is off target and proper maneuvering is used quickly. Rather vs close and non-maneuvering targets (or if you have nuclear warhead on it ;-)

SLMM and Mobile Mine—Includes Doctrine Files, Mod by Amizaur
A fix that makes them stop making noise after they have stopped moving has been
applied to both weapons. In addition, they will now actively try to stop once
they have reached their assigned location and will be reliably on target and hold
their position, making them an effective weapon, which they were not before. Their
maximum usable depth remains the same (300ft for SLMM and 450ft for Mobile mines,
the range of their seekers), but the weapon will shutdown below 600ft. These weapons
are for use in shallow water and will "malfunction" in deep water. ;-) Also, do not
try to use these weapons on a steep slope (well, don’t use AGAINST a steep slope on on slope going up, upward slope (?) I mean you can lay them without problem if you fire it in course pararel to land, so bottom will not be raising quickly in the last phase).
This is only workaround, not fix, but with mines capable of reveres speed used as a parking break works quite well �

Seawolf Max Speed—The max speed of the Seawolf class has been reduced to 38kts, as is more plausible. The Seawolf is still easily the quietest, fastest, and most heavily armed submarine in the world. ;-)

688(i) Towed Arrays- Added TB-23 as starboard array. The reason I have kept it
on the starboard, against what is commonly reported, is because in missions
where ownship starts with TA deployed, it is always the starboard array, and I
figured in most situations I would want that one deployed. The port TB-16
washes out at ~20kts and the TB-23 washes out at around ~16kts (you folks
can tell me if that feels right once you play around with it...
or if I'm just completely off...). I have set the sensitivity of the TB-23
to be pretty much in the middle of the TB-16 and the TB-29. I was even able to
change the names in game, so have fun captains!

Akula II Modified Gepard TA—The array of the Gepard has been upgraded to hypothetical Pelamida II standards, with a Max speed of +4kts over the original Pelamida, and the in game name has been changed to “Pelamida II�. The sensitivity has been left as it is. This array has also been assigned to the Oscar SSGN, to reflect the latest developments in the most funded Russian submarine projects.

Midget Sub—The Midget sub has been given a periscope sensor, as previously it had no sensors at all, and its active sonar parameters have been changed to make it more detectable as is realistic.

Russian SVTT-Ship Launched Torpedos—Changed to USET-80, to better reflect Russian
capabilites. Note, only Russian SVTT launchers previously
equipped with 53cm torpedos have been changed, some launchers are equipped
with other torpedos. Also, the Grisha FFL retains the 53cm Torpedo w/UGST
specifications, as the USNR in-game database says its launchers have
been modified to fire wire-guided torpedos, so I thought it might be interesting.

Russian Airdropped Torpedoes—Platforms that had previously been firing the 53cm will use the APR-2E, the torpedo which comes equipped as the default weapon the Helix ASW Helo.

SLAM-ER Fix—I have removed the missile's IR seeker, which apparently was interfering with its terminal homing. The missile now looks in the DB and behaves in the game
like a light TLAM, and, *functions correctly*, exploding on target with
the same accuracy of a TLAM. Note, this weapon is not the most effective strike
missile, as it has less than half of the warhead of the TLAM, meaning you need
more than one missile to destroy medium and heavy targets if the missile does
not land directly on target. Even small, light targets may escape the blast of
this missile if it overshoots. For some reason, IF YOU DO NOT CHANGE THE
WAYPOINTS, THIS MISSLE WILL NOT WORK!!! I can't change this, and I'm not sure why.
(well I have to take a look at it, I’m curious why it didn’t work. It may be the same problem I experienced with my first, snapshot version of SS-N-27 ASM – when it detected ANY target with it’s sensor, all range calculations were reset and doctrine called with Init=true all the time. With no sensor it worked ok. Sounds similar.

SS-N-27 Two Stage Mod—Mod by Amizaur, doctrine file included—The first stage of the missile launches the second one and falls to the water or sometimes rises into the air as a decoy, to simulate the reported real-world function of the missile. This version of the mod uses a streamlined doctrine format that needs only one doctrine file. The enable point of the first stage, which is a cruise missile at 500kts with a max range of 200km/108nm, enables its seeker as usual, however, when the seeker has acquired a target, the missile will fire the second stage, which is the supersonic attack phase equipped with the final seeker and warhead with speed 2.5 mach and range 24km/13nm. This version of the mod requires less finesse in entering the proper range, as the missile will tend to detect targets around the max range of the second stage, but it is good to enable the missile somewhere around the max range of the second stage (so 11-12nm before the target) to minimize the chance of an early fire and take full advantage of the coordination of the second stage supersonic sea-skimming attack phase and first stage post-launch decoy (to cover most of the air defence zone by supersonic stage, not by vunerable subsonic stage).



That's it! We hope you enjoy! Please let us know if you find any errors, would like to
contribute to a future release, or have any suggestions or comments. The place is http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...=41581&start=0.

Happy Hunting.

LW

[Amizaur]

Luftwolf, I see our mail contact has broken or something... seems you didn't get my last emails with graph pack and two last changes to thrust profiles ? I send you email now, I made those two corrections (Akula 2 cSpeedNoise to 21, Kilo new dedicated thrust profile with cSpeedNoise = 13) that are needed so tha game is compatible with graphs, I made graphs with those changes taken into account. Database with graph pack should be in your and Bill's mailbox now.

P.S. But the most important change of this mod is not the NLs in my opinion ! :-)

For me the most important is the diversification of torpedo seekers, so small ASW or old torpedos don't have 5000yd acquire range like ADCAP, in fact even ADCAP now have smaller range because the typical target is supposed to be modern SSN or SSK with anechoic-coating, not big old SSBN. I forget to add table of torpedo seeker ranges will fix it !

Also the reduction of DICASS active range from always max vs everything to lower values vs at least some small targets is big difference I think, VERY big for Kilo drivers :-) now we stand a chance sometimes. Also FFGs active doesn't show every target on max range anymore. Unfortunately the "blip" ping return can still be heard even when tgt should not be detected and there is nothing on the screen (really nothing, no contrast/gamma/brightness settings can separate anything).

Maybe it would be good idea to remove the ping return sound from the FFGs and Subs active sonar stations ? An idea for sound modders - give a null sample instead of the "blip". I think there is nothing like that in reality and operator have to find the target on the screen, am I right ?

And in SP games too AI FFGs will not detect everything on max range on active (and send link to everyone else). I think it this would work ok, then other AI surface active sonars will be modified in same way, so it would be possible then to sneak closer in some conditions even against active sonar.

But of course it's only poor man's workaround, not in any way solution, the real improvement will be only true fix of active sonar model by SCS ! Same for doctrine mod that prevents AI from sinking friendly ships - it works... but this is all good about it - it causes unnecessary torpedo doctrine complication. Simple fix by SCS to make AI units set proper ceiling of their weapons would be 10x better.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Amizaur

Luftwolf, I see our mail contact has broken or something... seems you didn't get my last emails with graph pack and two last changes to thrust profiles ? I send you email now, I made those two corrections (Akula 2 cSpeedNoise to 21, Kilo new dedicated thrust profile with cSpeedNoise = 13) that are needed so tha game is compatible with graphs, I made graphs with those changes taken into account. Database with graph pack should be in your and Bill's mailbox now.

P.S. But the most important change of this mod is not the NLs in my opinion ! :-)

OK, I forgot about the cavitation thing, so I withdraw my complaint about the Perry. But, I think you may be underestimating just how important the NLs are to realism and balance. For 2.1, I urge you to consider the following "tweak":

I noticed you were able to use different "curves" for increasing NLs. That's very useful. What you should do is start the SSNs at a "moderate" noise level, with the more modern ones a few points lower than the older ones. As speed increases, SLOWLY increase the NL. For the Seawolf in particular, keep the curve pretty flat. This makes sense, because it will put the real-life problem of SSNs always having a base sound level from the reactor while having the advantage of being very well-engineered to have very little flow noise as the speed increases.
But, for SSKs, give them a starting NL significantly lower than the base for SSN. Make the noise increase rapidly with speed, catching up with the SSN's at 6 knots or so and becoming downright noisy around 12. This lets the SSK use its real-life advantage at rest and at very low speeds, while compromising that advantage if it tries to cruise like an SSN. The problem with the hotfix wasn't that the Kilos were too quiet; it was that they never became noisy once they put on the speed!

For me the most important is the diversification of torpedo seekers, so small ASW or old torpedos don't have 5000yd acquire range like ADCAP, in fact even ADCAP now have smaller range because the typical target is supposed to be modern SSN or SSK with anechoic-coating, not big old SSBN. I forget to add table of torpedo seeker ranges will fix it !

Also the reduction of DICASS active range from always max vs everything to lower values vs at least some small targets is big difference I think, VERY big for Kilo drivers :-) now we stand a chance sometimes. Also FFGs active doesn't show every target on max range anymore. Unfortunately the "blip" ping return can still be heard even when tgt should not be detected and there is nothing on the screen (really nothing, no contrast/gamma/brightness settings can separate anything).

This should improve things a lot, especially in multiclass matches. I look forward to testing it!

Maybe it would be good idea to remove the ping return sound from the FFGs and Subs active sonar stations ? An idea for sound modders - give a null sample instead of the "blip". I think there is nothing like that in reality and operator have to find the target on the screen, am I right ?

Yes. Don't forget the sonobouys and dipping sonars.

And in SP games too AI FFGs will not detect everything on max range on active (and send link to everyone else). I think it this would work ok, then other AI surface active sonars will be modified in same way, so it would be possible then to sneak closer in some conditions even against active sonar.

But of course it's only poor man's workaround, not in any way solution, the real improvement will be only true fix of active sonar model by SCS ! Same for doctrine mod that prevents AI from sinking friendly ships - it works... but this is all good about it - it causes unnecessary torpedo doctrine complication. Simple fix by SCS to make AI units set proper ceiling of their weapons would be 10x better.

They seem to be too busy at the moment. Hopefully, the feedback generated by your mod will give them some ideas about what to change when they finally do get around to patching DW. And of course, once they patch it, DWX will be just around the corner. Looks like you have the conn! ; )

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur, I think I may have not gotten one or two of your emails. Did you send them last night? because I got the changes to SW and 688i thrusts. I did get an email with charts, but those were before the last of the changes.

In any case, Bill, Amizaur has sent a corrected distribution, please post that one, which includes a zip with in the zip of Amizaurs great sound vs speed charts for the most important platforms.

Sorry about that confusion, I'm at work for the next 20 hours, so if there is still a problem, I can fix it when I get back much later tonight, but as long as the zip file that amizaur sent back has all the doctrines and is set to install appropriate files to Database and Doctrine folders, everything is good with the version he sent.

Cheers,
David

[LuftWolf]

Yes, we definately had an email foulup... I just got like 8 messages from you, completely out of order! :-\

I have managed to get an hour and half at home by my computer. I've completely lost track of what you may have done on the mod after I sent it to you and Bill.

Have you finished adding what you wanted me to add from your emails? Is it finished and does Bill have the final version per you?

Sorry about the messup... wierd, yahoo email is usually very good. I'm posting this here and sending PM just to be sure in addition to email.

Edit: My messed-up email archaeology skills have led me to the conclusion that Bill indeed does have the correct version and after weeks of work, email servers are not going to mess us up, no sir!

[LuftWolf]

Molon et al, yeah remember that the Passive SL comparision between subs and ship is not at all 1-1 because their thrust profiles are radically different and ships have much earlier cavitation points.

So, a OHP at anchor may be as quiet as Typhoon, with two nuke plants running and six times the size?

[compressioncut]

Originally Posted by Amizaur

Also the reduction of DICASS active range from always max vs everything to lower values vs at least some small targets is big difference I think, VERY big for Kilo drivers :-) now we stand a chance sometimes. Also FFGs active doesn't show every target on max range anymore. Unfortunately the "blip" ping return can still be heard even when tgt should not be detected and there is nothing on the screen (really nothing, no contrast/gamma/brightness settings can separate anything).

Maybe it would be good idea to remove the ping return sound from the FFGs and Subs active sonar stations ? An idea for sound modders - give a null sample instead of the "blip". I think there is nothing like that in reality and operator have to find the target on the screen, am I right ?

Nononono; very often you are listening for the echo rather than looking for it. Removing the "ghost" return echo would make the FFG (at least) active sonar screen much less realistic. It's one of the things that I like a lot, and protest strongly against removing it.

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

So, a OHP at anchor may be as quiet as Typhoon, with two nuke plants running and six times the size?

A warship at rest ain't exactly silent - big, loud and multiple diesel generators, extensive air conditioning, high and low pressure air compressors, ventilation fans, etc. etc. A DG isn't like a portable Honda generator - they're probably equivalent in size to the main propulsion diesels in modern SSKs, and while I don't know how many an OHP has, my ship has four.

Of course, the noise level goes up with the size of the ship, from pretty loud with a smallish frigate/destroyer to deafening with something like a Nimitz carrier. I don't know how many noise complaints the carriers get when they anchor in the Roads out here, but I bet it's a few.

[LuftWolf]

That's interesting information. I take it you are sonarman? I had often wondered whether the audio return amplification capability of the active sonars (non-bearing information) exceded its display amplification ability (bearing information), and that SCS got it right and we all think its a bug.

Perhaps that is why the FFG has single-beam mode, Omni, and Omni Directional? Single beam mode can be used to obtain rough bearing information from audio only returns.

Also, on this note, I have many times been in a Kilo on the bottom of the ocean and been well within max detect range of surface active sonar and was not detected. This always felt right to me, do you guys have other experiences with the bug because it sounds like you are ALWAYS detected by AI regardless of anything.

Of course, being able to klick around on the screen to find a contact is not really good.

On another note, since Amizaur made his Speed Graph for Surface Ships, I have changed some of the values to scale the ships for size and quality, so that smaller ships are generally quieter, as are better ships, by class and country. If an updated graph does not get included in this distribution, I would expect it to be posted soon and definately included, along with more thorough documentation and data-tables/graphs, in the already planned v2.01.

Happy Hunting.

Cheers,
David

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by compressioncut

Nononono; very often you are listening for the echo rather than looking for it. Removing the "ghost" return echo would make the FFG (at least) active sonar screen much less realistic. It's one of the things that I like a lot, and protest strongly against removing it.

It is a nice touch to have the sound, but the problem is that the audio feedback allows a player to click randomly at that range even if a return isn't visible. It's like the Kilo cheat only for active sonar. It would be one thing if the audio return came back garbled or degraded for weak echoes, but the way DW is right now it comes back full strength for a contact that should not have been detectable.

Losing the audio gives a big boost to realism and balance at the cost of only a minor hit to emersion. Easily a net gain.

[compressioncut]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

It is a nice touch to have the sound, but the problem is that the audio feedback allows a player to click randomly at that range even if a return isn't visible. It's like the Kilo cheat only for active sonar. It would be one thing if the audio return came back garbled or degraded for weak echoes, but the way DW is right now it comes back full strength for a contact that should not have been detectable.

Losing the audio gives a big boost to realism and balance at the cost of only a minor hit to emersion. Easily a net gain.

Okay - so you can click and assign a tracker to a ghost echo, or you can just get a fairly accurate determinition of the range from the timing of the echo? If it's the former, yeah, that's a cheat. If it's the latter, then that's exactly what I'd do with audio as an operator in real life. "SCS, HMS, I have an audio-only return at approximately 8,700 yards, bearing unknown." It gets dealt with tactically after I pass it up.

That said, it's unlikely you'll get a persistent audio-only return, unless I have tons of reverberation or other propagation problems. The processor should display the return, eventually, as it's reasonably smart.

[Amizaur]

OK, so echo sound should be in the game. Thanks for clearing this ! But I guess it should be quieter for faint contacts. In game it's always full volume, regardles of range, regardles of target strength, regardles if there is something on the screen or not. And you can click on the display where is simply nothing only background - you will get a track IF there is a sub. If there is nothing you can click all day and you don't get track...

So the the sound only informs you that there is something at all, and then tells you the range. Then only it takes to click on that range on different bearings to get a track where it really is . In absence of the return sound cheaters wouldn't know at what range they have to click.
And how I know I was always detected - from DbgView output of course. I was always detected when in range and AI active sonar was not washed out by speed.
In some missions (like St. Pete Blockade) you are in range and pinged, but the AI ship runs too fast, with completly blocked sonar, that you can do ANYTHING, even park on his course side aspect at peri and watch as it closes pinging and passes 100m from you - he would not get you on active, never. You can do whatever you want in that mission, you are safe from active sonar.
But when they run slow and sonars are working, I was detected ALWAYS by AI units when in range. Sometimes not attacked - when classified as neutral or not attacked from any other reasons (transit orders, weapon range, well AI behaviour after detection is in doctrines) but detection was sure. For example you are always detected in Kilo Demo mission by first or second OHP ping. Only not attacked because classifield as neutral - untill you fire or do something other aggresive...
Or maybe I shouldn't say this...? Well there are different opinions, some say that truth is your enemy sometimes... I think that it's not truth, but reality. And reality can be fixed sometimes - if you know the truth.

[compressioncut]

I see what you mean, by clicking all along the range you can create a contact. That's not good, and not really satisfactory.

Oh well.

[Bill Nichols]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Amizaur has sent a corrected distribution, please post that one, which includes a zip with in the zip of Amizaurs great sound vs speed charts for the most important platforms.


Cheers,
David

Latest version is now available at my site! Many thanks to all involved

[Molon Labe]

Just gave the mod a quick test run using the P-3 in my own AEGIS Sucker-Punch (NCHQ version).


All of these use Kilo(I) as the target/contact

Sonar performance: (SSP is bottom limited, rock bottom)
VLAD performance: will pick up the Kilos at ~7kts from a range of 2-3 miles. Can classify from inside 1 mile (3 dots).

DICASS performance: similar to VLAD, will generate clear echo at 1 mile (side aspect), intermittent echo at 2.5 miles (angular aspect), no return from 4 miles (angular aspect).

Link Performance:
MH60 promoted a contact using passive sonar data from 2 VLADs when the target cavitated. A second Kilo could also be detected by VLAD while cavitating but was not promoted. This second Kilo got within 12 miles of the SAG (OHP and Burke) without being promoted.

Other:
All triggers appeared to be working properly.


Torpedo performance:
Mark 50: Acquired easily when dropped "on the head"
A shank shot from side aspect 3 miles away did not acquire when facing the target.
Mark 54: Acquired easily from 2 miles from angled aspect

***Potential bug***
I usually don't drive P-3's, and I've been away for awhile, so can some P-3 driver please confirm this? (This is using the default loadout)
------
The Mark 54 still displays at the Mark 46 on the P-3s TACCO station. In addition, some odd behavior was observed. After assigning a weapon to a waypoint, a menu appeared on the display asking to assign another weapon. Not doing so would cause the waypoint to be deleted upon exiting the TACCO station. Even if the Mark 50 station below a Mark 54 station was empty, the Mark 54 station was (usually) not visible on this menu. When a Mark 46(54) was selected and assigned to a waypoint successfully, the torpedo was not released upon arrival at the drop point.

The Mark 54 could still be dropped manually using the Fire button at TACCO.
-----

[Neutrino 123]

I just shot some Adcaps at a few targets, and I noticed one annoying thing about the torpedo active/passive information. The feature itself works very well and is an excellent addition, but the auto TMA keeps merging the torpedo data with the target data, essentially making the torpedo data disappear, and not moving the target into the correct place. Turning auto TMA off would fix this, of course, but for people who want to track other targets and simultaneously have the torpedo data, it doesn't work as well.

Is there any way to prevent the torpedo data from merging with the ship sensors data? Perhaps the torpedo data could somehow be classified as link data?