Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine - Page 13

Jimbuna · 02-27-14, 10:09 AM

Looks like the temperature has just been turned up a little.

Quote:

Ukrainian interim President Olexander Turchynov has warned Russia against any "military aggression" in Crimea.

He said Russia's troops from Russia's Black Sea Fleet should not move outside their naval base in Sevastopol.

The warning comes after unknown armed men seized Crimea's regional parliament and the government headquarters of the autonomous Russian-majority region.

Meanwhile, the Crimean parliament has said it wants to hold a referendum on greater self-rule.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26366700

mapuc · 02-27-14, 10:40 AM

This post is not so much about the crisis itself but about what we are answering in this thread.

It's not any type of criticism of any kind it's about our psychological aspect on this issue

When some of us write "The Russian is just showing of" or "The Russians are not dumb" it's our inner fear that are afraid of what is really going to happen in that area.

So we consoles our self by writing as such

Sorry for this little detour

Markus

Skybird · 02-27-14, 11:36 AM

Basing on the Ukrainian office for statistics, this shows how the per-head income is distributed amongst provinces in the Ukraine in December 2013. The East is richer than the West, numbers are in the national currency Hrywnja.

No doubt that Kiew will try to force unwilling Russian dominated areas to stay under its rule. The regional parliament on the Krimean peninsula has announced a public poll for mid-May.

The interim government in Kiew has said that 37 billion mysteriously "disappeared".

So many good reasons to have this country in the EU and throwing money into black holes, split or united.

Sailor Steve · 02-27-14, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

...numbers are in the national currency Hrywnja.

How much is that in Bitcoins?

Jimbuna · 02-27-14, 12:28 PM

LOL not even be worth that now

Phyrrus · 02-27-14, 01:58 PM

It took me 3 nights to read through this topic and try to comprehend the often elevated language (wich exceeds my basic english), and now I must say that I am pleasantly surprised - to be honest, I was expecting the usual comments of the usual mediocre level, which I got used to on other forums. Maybe there are wars going on out there and maybe peope are suffering and even dying, but after reading this I must say: all is not lost. I really much advise both Ukranie former and actual goverment, than EU leaders, Putin and obama themselves to read this whole topic, maybe it will help them take smarter decisions

I have no interest in trying to lick anyone's back side by saying this, I really mean it. You subsimmers are clever people.
What I'm tryig to say by this is that I am so happy that there are still people out there (here) who are not totally brain-washed and blinded by propaganda of both sides, people that - although not into politics directly - have relatively clear vision of things, and can think for themselves, have a well shaped and well documented opinion about the world, and still care for the world we live in. (As you may figured it out, I'm a natural born idealist who lost his main belief)
Too bad you subsimmers are not in a position of power...

"This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no power" -Herodotus

Oberon · 02-27-14, 02:49 PM

Oh, that I would be the same man in power that I am now, but power is a mysterious mistress and has a way of bending men and women alike to her whims.

mapuc makes a good observation, I have stated in this thread on multiple occasions that I don't think that Russia would overtly send in military force to the Ukraine...however the simple fact of the matter is that I have absolutely no idea. I would have likely have said a similar thing had you asked me about Abkhazia and the South Ossetian war.

The truth is, none of us can make a full on accurate statement, only hope that we are assessing the situation in a manner similar to those who are making the decisions are doing so, even if we are not privy to the same level of information.

But still, it's a nice mental challenge to contemplate the geo-political situation in the region, and attempt to work out the next moves of the sides involved, a bit like looking at a chess board in mid-play and trying to determine the next players move.

Returning to this line of thought, Skybird brings a fascinating diagram, which reinforces the desperate situation that West Ukraine finds itself, which means it may have no choice but to attempt to forcibly integrate the rebelling provinces into the country, which would only increase the likelihood of a Russian based intervention.

The primary swing vote is NATO and the EU countries, will they support west Ukraine in anything more than a financial and political manner?

Russia is no doubt asking itself the same question, and no doubt the EU and NATO are putting up their best bluff to try and put Russia off taking military action, but...well...we know how good a poker player Putin is, and I suspect that he'll see straight through any western bluff.

Skybird · 02-27-14, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

How much is that in Bitcoins?

Hehe, the big hope of some new economists.

To me, this and other virtual currencies as well as plastic money is nothing more than just FIAT paper money without paper. Surprisingly, some Austrians also fell for this idea, which really surprised me.

Phyrrus · 02-27-14, 07:05 PM

I personally hope that Putin will finally acheve his goal and halt the Eu expansion. Not because I like Putin so much, not because I dont wish freedom for Ucrainians - although I live this "freedom" everyday myself and I dont quite like it, but hey, they have the right to learn on their own skin.
I wish EU expansion to be stopped (by anyone, not only Putin) because I fear she will fell apart if she keeps pushing her boundaries out so fast. Putin is ONE will, China is ONE will, but EU is already so divided, is falling apart, and i think she will not last to see my grandchildren. EU has so many great conflicts within her borders already that she wont survive if wont stop and strenghten herself from inside. From where I stand, Eu looks more rotten from inside in only 20 years than roman empire could rot in 500 yrs. Or maybe i'm just not standing in the right place?

mapuc · 02-27-14, 07:25 PM

I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow or in the near future. I don't know what Russia is going to do, if things gets out of hand i Crimea.

There's only one thing I know-if Russia intervene, NATO will not just sit there.

Markus

Jimbuna · 02-28-14, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow or in the near future. I don't know what Russia is going to do, if things gets out of hand i Crimea.

There's only one thing I know-if Russia intervene, NATO will not just sit there.

Markus

Well we may well find out if that will be the case pretty soon.

Quote:

Ukraine's interior minister has accused Russian naval forces of occupying Sevastopol airport in the autonomous region of Crimea.

Arsen Avakov called their presence an "armed invasion".

But Russia's Black Sea Fleet has denied that Russian servicemen are taking part.

The other main Crimean airport, Simferopol, was also occupied by armed men on Friday. The men are thought to be pro-Russia militia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26379722

Oberon · 02-28-14, 05:34 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26379722

Quote:

Armed men, said by Mr Avakov to be Russian soldiers, arrived in the Sevastopol military airport near Russia's Black Sea Fleet Base on Friday morning.
The men were patrolling outside, backed up by armoured vehicles, but Ukrainian military and border guards remained inside, Mr Avakov said.

Quote:

But Russia's Black Sea Fleet has denied that Russian servicemen are taking part.
The other main Crimean airport, Simferopol, was also occupied by armed men on Friday. The men are thought to be pro-Russia militia.

Skybird · 02-28-14, 05:53 AM

I guess this is militia. The majority of people on the Crimean is ethnic Russian.

Nationwide, across all of Ukraine, Russians form 17-20% of the population.

Oberon · 02-28-14, 07:24 AM

I'd say that certainly the outer circle of forces are militia, the inner circle likely also militia, or perhaps 'volunteer' forces. However, it's an escalation, and since the head of the Ukrainian armed forces has just been fired, military control is flakey, mistakes can be made, things could spiral.

TarJak · 02-28-14, 07:50 AM

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-2...vasion/5291986

This report quotes Putin as saying talks are continuing with Ukraine.

Quote:

The Kremlin said Mr Putin had ordered his government to continue talks with Ukraine on economic and trade relations, and to consult foreign partners including the International Monetary Fund on financial aid.

It also said Mr Putin ordered the government to consider a request from Crimea for humanitarian aid but made no direct reference to the latest events.

02-27-14, 11:36 AM	#183
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,560 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Basing on the Ukrainian office for statistics, this shows how the per-head income is distributed amongst provinces in the Ukraine in December 2013. The East is richer than the West, numbers are in the national currency Hrywnja. No doubt that Kiew will try to force unwilling Russian dominated areas to stay under its rule. The regional parliament on the Krimean peninsula has announced a public poll for mid-May. The interim government in Kiew has said that 37 billion mysteriously "disappeared". So many good reasons to have this country in the EU and throwing money into black holes, split or united. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-27-14, 12:28 PM	#185
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,344 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	LOL not even be worth that now __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

02-28-14, 05:53 AM	#193
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,560 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	I guess this is militia. The majority of people on the Crimean is ethnic Russian. Nationwide, across all of Ukraine, Russians form 17-20% of the population. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-27-14, 10:40 AM	#182
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,956 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	This post is not so much about the crisis itself but about what we are answering in this thread. It's not any type of criticism of any kind it's about our psychological aspect on this issue When some of us write "The Russian is just showing of" or "The Russians are not dumb" it's our inner fear that are afraid of what is really going to happen in that area. So we consoles our self by writing as such Sorry for this little detour Markus

02-27-14, 01:58 PM	#186
Phyrrus Mate Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: East Europe, home of new barbarian hordes! Posts: 52 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	It took me 3 nights to read through this topic and try to comprehend the often elevated language (wich exceeds my basic english), and now I must say that I am pleasantly surprised - to be honest, I was expecting the usual comments of the usual mediocre level, which I got used to on other forums. Maybe there are wars going on out there and maybe peope are suffering and even dying, but after reading this I must say: all is not lost. I really much advise both Ukranie former and actual goverment, than EU leaders, Putin and obama themselves to read this whole topic, maybe it will help them take smarter decisions I have no interest in trying to lick anyone's back side by saying this, I really mean it. You subsimmers are clever people. What I'm tryig to say by this is that I am so happy that there are still people out there (here) who are not totally brain-washed and blinded by propaganda of both sides, people that - although not into politics directly - have relatively clear vision of things, and can think for themselves, have a well shaped and well documented opinion about the world, and still care for the world we live in. (As you may figured it out, I'm a natural born idealist who lost his main belief) Too bad you subsimmers are not in a position of power... "This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no power" -Herodotus

02-27-14, 02:49 PM	#187
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Oh, that I would be the same man in power that I am now, but power is a mysterious mistress and has a way of bending men and women alike to her whims. mapuc makes a good observation, I have stated in this thread on multiple occasions that I don't think that Russia would overtly send in military force to the Ukraine...however the simple fact of the matter is that I have absolutely no idea. I would have likely have said a similar thing had you asked me about Abkhazia and the South Ossetian war. The truth is, none of us can make a full on accurate statement, only hope that we are assessing the situation in a manner similar to those who are making the decisions are doing so, even if we are not privy to the same level of information. But still, it's a nice mental challenge to contemplate the geo-political situation in the region, and attempt to work out the next moves of the sides involved, a bit like looking at a chess board in mid-play and trying to determine the next players move. Returning to this line of thought, Skybird brings a fascinating diagram, which reinforces the desperate situation that West Ukraine finds itself, which means it may have no choice but to attempt to forcibly integrate the rebelling provinces into the country, which would only increase the likelihood of a Russian based intervention. The primary swing vote is NATO and the EU countries, will they support west Ukraine in anything more than a financial and political manner? Russia is no doubt asking itself the same question, and no doubt the EU and NATO are putting up their best bluff to try and put Russia off taking military action, but...well...we know how good a poker player Putin is, and I suspect that he'll see straight through any western bluff.

02-27-14, 07:05 PM	#189
Phyrrus Mate Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: East Europe, home of new barbarian hordes! Posts: 52 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	I personally hope that Putin will finally acheve his goal and halt the Eu expansion. Not because I like Putin so much, not because I dont wish freedom for Ucrainians - although I live this "freedom" everyday myself and I dont quite like it, but hey, they have the right to learn on their own skin. I wish EU expansion to be stopped (by anyone, not only Putin) because I fear she will fell apart if she keeps pushing her boundaries out so fast. Putin is ONE will, China is ONE will, but EU is already so divided, is falling apart, and i think she will not last to see my grandchildren. EU has so many great conflicts within her borders already that she wont survive if wont stop and strenghten herself from inside. From where I stand, Eu looks more rotten from inside in only 20 years than roman empire could rot in 500 yrs. Or maybe i'm just not standing in the right place?

02-27-14, 07:25 PM	#190
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,956 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow or in the near future. I don't know what Russia is going to do, if things gets out of hand i Crimea. There's only one thing I know-if Russia intervene, NATO will not just sit there. Markus

02-28-14, 07:24 AM	#194
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I'd say that certainly the outer circle of forces are militia, the inner circle likely also militia, or perhaps 'volunteer' forces. However, it's an escalation, and since the head of the Ukrainian armed forces has just been fired, military control is flakey, mistakes can be made, things could spiral.