Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Hungry-Bear

Russia does not need to send troops (if western Ukraine not attack to the eastern Ukraine), Putin comfortable agree with EU leaders on the division of "the spoils".

The current question though is how the Ukraine is going to handle having two leaders, and will either side attack the other.

[Dread Knot]

Yeah, Ukraine is looking like it will definitely split. Yanukovych is gaining ground in the pro-Russian east and south. They're forming a new legislature and everything.

This is probably the best fate for Ukraine. Whether it will be allowed to happen by both parties is another matter.

[mapuc]

This is from a danish article I have used Google translate

From the danish newspaper Ræson= the Reasoning

Are Russia planning to intervene?


Events in Ukraine is developing fast. President Yanukovych have appeared, former Prime Julija Tymoshenko has been released and the opposition and protesters have taken control of Kiev. Joy spreads, but it is too naive to think that Yanukovych and the Russians have abandoned Ukraine

Up to 100 people lost their lives this week in fighting between the Ukrainian president's police forces and demonstrators in Kiev's Independence Square. Now, a few days later, it seems that President Viktor Yanukovych is sidelined. His opponent, former Prime Minister Julija Tymoshenko has been released, and the demonstrators and the opposition has taken control de of Kiev. It was unthinkable just a few days ago, but it's not too early to let the joy euphoria spread in Kiev's streets? Has President Viktor Yanukovych and Russians thrown in the towel and let the democratic forces come to Ukraine? Hardly

Protesters and the opposition have during the day taken all government buildings and Viktor Yanukovich's private residence. There have been reports that President Yanukovych had left the country, but the news was, however, far from being true. Unfortunately

Saturday afternoon he appeared on a television station in eastern Ukraine and announced that he does not intend to resign as the country's president. He described the situation in the country as a coup , and his aggressive appearance suggests that the battle for Ukraine is far from won, and the Ukrainians during the coming months expect an offensive by Yanukovych's side . The president's speech, especially the description of the situation in Ukraine as a coup , should be taken with great seriousness, as they may be an attempt to prepare a Russian invasion of the country. Russians' reaction to recent events in Ukraine has remained relatively sparse, but the Russians have condemned the events in the country. This may indicate that the possibility of a Russian invasion nearly as unrealistic as it first sounds. The timing of the Olympic Games in Sochi ends tomorrow and the Russian population of Crimea Thursday has asked for Russian help is absolutely perfect for a " brotherly help oppressed Russian population " . Recent events in Ukraine and the protesters' initial victory is in fact certainly not something the Russians like. Demonstrators The success can quickly become a threat to both Putin's empire and against other autocratic society plans of the Russian interest, such as Belarus , Azerbaijan, Armenia and Central Asia . Demonstrators The victory can inspire the democratic forces in these countries to rebel and unleash a wave of revolutions in these countries. Therefore, it would certainly sooner or later get a response from the Kremlin. A response whose purpose will be to put a spanner in the Ukrainian wheels.

CURRENT siutation in Kiev and throughout Ukraine must in any case be considered highly vulnerable , and it is important that the new rulers quickly gain control of the country and the military, and especially ensures the eastern and southern Ukraine, where a Russian invasion can be considered. It is also important that the new authorities to handle the various factions that just a few days ago have stood on opposite sides of the barricades and have killed each other . This is true despite the fact that we are currently questioning the Ukrainian Parliament 's legitimacy and powers , as all parliamentary decisions require , according to the Ukrainian Constitution the president's signature. Preliminary reports from Kiev also suggests that among the demonstrators continue to radical groups , who are not satisfied with the opposition agreement with the President. These represent a potential danger that the unrest could flare up again . It is therefore important that the demonstrators and the new Ukrainian politicians can quickly eliminate these groupings
End of text

Markus

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Hungry-Bear

Russia does not need to send troops (if western Ukraine not attack to the eastern Ukraine), Putin comfortable agree with EU leaders on the division of "the spoils".

Right. They dont have to send troops bcox they already have. Sharpshooters supporting Berkut spoke russian, not ukrainian.

[Phyrrus]

I'm starting this tread because there are - in my opinion - great things happening in Ukraine. Two days ago Ukrainian goverment asked Putin officially for a military intervention. This may be getting serious.
I've heard many opinions here and there. I consider this Subsim community having a greater average IQ than other forums, so I'd really love you to share your thoughs about events in Ukraina. What do you subsimmers think, is there somethig behind it or is it only what we see? Who do you think is involved? Will it have greater impact on economy and markets and politics, as Iraq or Egypt had, or will go unnoticed? Will they succeed? Will Putin intervene with army? Why does this happen now, why not 20 yrs ago? Are we going to see russian submarines at Constanta (Black sea) or in the mediterranean?

These things are happening at our borders (by ours I mean Romania, home of SH series makers in Bucharest), not in a distand land like Iraq, not Vietnam. It's Ukraine. Euro, lei and forint exchange rates have already fallen as direct consequence of the revolulution. Or wait, is it a revolution?

So what do you think?

Sorry, I didn't know there is already such thread, I searched it but searched only 2014 for topics. Thanks for the heads-up and redirection, I think I will find my answers here

[Catfish]

Well they just said they would fight against the Russians, if they came ..
Don't think they will come, though.

[Jimbuna]

He (Yanukovych) certainly lived well.

Echoing the opposition's control of the government district in Kiev, crowds have roamed freely around the grounds of Mr Yanukovych's country house, just outside the capital.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26303913

[TarJak]

I think the thread that's already discussing this is enough. http://subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209742

[Betonov]

A 140 hectares

I have 5 hectares and don't know what to do with it

Admire the Ukranians how they responded. Instead of pillaging and burning the residence they made a park out of it

[Jimbuna]

@Phyrrus

I have merged the threads because the topics are identical, unfortunately a few posts were made whilst I was carrying out the task.

Your contributions are most welcome.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Phyrrus

I'm starting this tread because there are - in my opinion - great things happening in Ukraine. Two days ago Ukrainian goverment asked Putin officially for a military intervention. This may be getting serious.
I've heard many opinions here and there. I consider this Subsim community having a greater average IQ than other forums, so I'd really love you to share your thoughs about events in Ukraina. What do you subsimmers think, is there somethig behind it or is it only what we see? Who do you think is involved? Will it have greater impact on economy and markets and politics, as Iraq or Egypt had, or will go unnoticed? Will they succeed? Will Putin intervene with army? Why does this happen now, why not 20 yrs ago? Are we going to see russian submarines at Constanta (Black sea) or in the mediterranean?

These things are happening at our borders (by ours I mean Romania, home of SH series makers in Bucharest), not in a distand land like Iraq, not Vietnam. It's Ukraine. Euro, lei and forint exchange rates have already fallen as direct consequence of the revolulution. Or wait, is it a revolution?

So what do you think?

It boilds down to this: the people living in the EU's netto paying countries will have to pay an awful lot of money for the Ukraine, which will backfire against their own future sooner or later. The financial needs can only be covered by forcing people to spend more into a snowball system, and by milking them even more thoroughly. More taxes, more debt-raising. By coincidence, the president of the German tax payer association gets quoted today with having demanded to tremendously beef up the government's personnel in the tax offices, and that especially rich tax payers should be put on a much shorter line. More control! More transparency of the citizens! More money to the state! It'S not as if German ordinary people do not already get ripped off of more than half of their income over taxes and mandatory payments alone. That is insane. And a good argument why we really do not need another open bleeding wound in the EU's flank.

Ukrainians have any right there is to decide on their wanted way of life - but they have to afford it, they have no right whatsoever to demand that others have to pay for what they want. Like the Scots cannot demand that all others have to pay their bills in case they vote for independence, the Ukrainians must find similar ways. I am utmost sceptical about the Ukraine, therefore.

A profound economic truth I learned to base on, is that you cannot build real wealth that lasts by picking up credit. You only start a new snowball system there, and since that constantly runs while hanging on a drip and looses functionality soon if you switch off that drip, it is not a functional system that could last, it always will end in the sort of crisis we see in the west since years now. We currently learn that the hard way in the West - and still most people try to deny this simple insight. Many people'S economic policy starts and ends with calling for more credit, and devaluing money with all the nasty implications that has, and for more planned economy and more regulation by the state, as if the state were not the worst but the most competent of all managers there are. In the end it compares all to a dream about Superman saving the world - and for free, of course.

All this will repeat itself in the Ukraine, probably. And worse: in the Ukraine you have a high amount of corruption, and strong industrial oligarchs who at least balance on the thin line between legal business and organised crime. Starting to pump money into this mixture - well, you can imagine the end of the story.

Too bad that dreams and desires alone cannot already pay for real world bills.

Regarding Putin, I do not take it as granted that he already has spoken his last word over the Ukraine. Olympics end today, and the Rubel has lost 17% in the imminent past and still is in free fall, the party of the games will now stop to overshine the difficult Russian realities. Whether that will motivate him for a tougher and more confrontational course, or will set limits to his ambitions to establish a custom union and claiming the Ukraine as a puffer to the West, remains to be seen.

[Oberon]

It is, like all revolutions, born of hopes but driven by greed and violence.
What has replaced Yanukovich is by no means an improvement for the people of the Ukraine, already sweeping power has been self-awarded to the new western Ukrainian government. It's no real surprise, if anything it is following the standard pattern of most revolutions, which is why I always inwardly cringe when I hear people in western democracies calling for a revolution...they rarely end with the desired result.

Yanukovich has already allegedly tried to flee to Russia once but was denied by the border guards, this does not sound like a man who is confident that he has a consolidated powerbase in the east of the country. So, in my view at least, the chance of a civil war has dipped ever so slightly, if Yanukovich is ready to flee to Russia rather than stay and act as a figurehead of a resistance to the changes in Kiev.

Really though, at the end of the day, everyone is going to lose in this.
The people of the Ukraine are going to lose because rather than be subserviant to Russia, they will be bound to be subservient to the EU, IMF and Germany who will bail them out in a year or two when the Ukrainian economy collapses (if not sooner).
Russia is going to lose because the EU/NATO will edge that much closer to Russia, it will be a damaging blow to Russian prestige in the region.
The EU is going to lose because it's going to have another massive drain on an already heavily taxed system.

In fact, the only two people that are going to benefit from this are the US who will have another semi-ally on Russias doorstep, and the Ukrainian Fascists who have gained a great deal of sway in the Ukraine as they have been the driving militant force behind the revolution.


The biggest question really is what is going to happen now? The only real answer to that lies in the east of the Ukraine, where Yanukovich and his allies have certainly been talking the talk...but will they be willing to walk the walk? Will Putin send more forces to aid them? Will they launch an assault on the west? Or will the Ukraine semi-peacefully split itself down the middle? (unlikely in my opinion, unless some heavy outside mediation creates it). Only time will tell, so all I can suggest is to keep following the news, the BBC seems to be tailing off its live updates for the moment, so I'm following RussiaToday...not exactly an unbiased source, but following both RT and the BBC usually balances each other out in a pro and anti-Yanukovich kind of way.

Kiev:
http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/

Kharkov:
http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-k...gathering-261/

[Phyrrus]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

@Phyrrus

I have merged the threads because the topics are identical, unfortunately a few posts were made whilst I was carrying out the task.

Your contributions are most welcome.

You did well, thank you. It was curious for me that there is not such subject, that wouldnt look like Subsim but I think I just have to learn using the SEARCH engine better...

[Oberon]

The cracks continue to spread:

The Ukrainian port city of Sevastopol has voted to stop paying taxes to Kiev, as it is seeking independence.

[Jimbuna]

England should unite with them and we can withold our taxes