Thinking about moving to Sh4

[Kapitän]

Hello Fellow Kaleuns!

A few years ago, I purchased a Sh4 Gold (incl. U-Boat Missions) PC/DVD, with the plan to modify this to the Atlantic Campaign Version, that the GWX Team was working on at the time.

This project was cancelled with the arrival of Sh5.

Because of this, I stayed with Sh3, having adapted the CCoM-Mod and h.sie-patch.

Now, I'm revisiting this topic of moving to Sh4, but would like to pretty much keep a similar game behavior, as described above (if that is possible).

There is a lot of information about Sh4 versions and mods here in the forum, but I'm not quite sure, which of these would apply to my ideas.

If any of you can point me to the right direction, I would much appreciate it.

Many thanks & Happy Hunting!

[propbeanie]

Staying with the Atlantic in SH4 would mean doing Operation Monsun from lurker_hlb3, from years back, or Dark Waters, which is a re-worked OM from Fifi. Both attempt to emulate a modded SH3, and include the original SH4 version of Op Monsun, along with the Med, and other areas. Then there are several offerings from the KSD team and assorted fellows, of which I am not too familiar with, so we'll have to await other's comments. There is nothing though, that can give you the h.sie / Stiebler "hardcore" experience available in SH4, and it does not have the same "claustrophobic" atmosphere of SH3. It also is not as pretty as SH5 - however, it is a better platform than SH3, and not as restricted as SH5 in modding certain aspects, such as adding player subs.

Advantages of SH4 over SH3 is a "dynamic loading" of the campaign files. In SH3, there are 3 campaign files, and they are huge, fully-loading at the start of the game session. The larger the mod, the longer the loading time. The entire Roster, all ships, planes and land units, are loaded into the game. In SH4 though, the campaign is done in "layers", and the game only loads what is in the immediate area. Nothing spawns into the game until it is almost close enough to be seen. The "assets" are tracked in a database, so it looks like the world is alive all around you, but only the immediate area is actually 3D. This reduces load times considerably, and makes the Save game much more stable - so long as the modders ( ) don't make things a mess with bad data...

Disadvantages of SH4 are that the devs never quite finished the game (surprise there, eh??), in spite of the "payware" v1.5 "update" that added the U-Boats to SH4. Equipment "upgrades" can be bothersome, and quite a few do fail, especially turm upgrades in OM and DW. I am not certain how deeply the KSD folks got into the weeds with atttempts to "fix" the issues, but surely someone can comment about that. There are work-arounds for the issues, but like a lot of thngs "Silent Hunter", are kludges...

Since you have it, I would load it up, add Dark Waters to it, use MultiSH4 and change the Save folder name, and start experimenting. Run a career from a base / timeframe of your choosing, and do the same in SH3 at the same time. Compare your experience between the two. I like all three games for varying reasons, but for me, it is still SH3 for the U-Boats, and SH4 for the US Pacific, with SH5 (with TWoS) in a distant third...

[Kapitän]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Staying with the Atlantic in SH4 would mean doing Operation Monsun from lurker_hlb3, from years back, or Dark Waters, which is a re-worked OM from Fifi. Both attempt to emulate a modded SH3, and include the original SH4 version of Op Monsun, along with the Med, and other areas. Then there are several offerings from the KSD team and assorted fellows, of which I am not too familiar with, so we'll have to await other's comments. There is nothing though, that can give you the h.sie / Stiebler "hardcore" experience available in SH4, and it does not have the same "claustrophobic" atmosphere of SH3. It also is not as pretty as SH5 - however, it is a better platform than SH3, and not as restricted as SH5 in modding certain aspects, such as adding player subs.

Advantages of SH4 over SH3 is a "dynamic loading" of the campaign files. In SH3, there are 3 campaign files, and they are huge, fully-loading at the start of the game session. The larger the mod, the longer the loading time. The entire Roster, all ships, planes and land units, are loaded into the game. In SH4 though, the campaign is done in "layers", and the game only loads what is in the immediate area. Nothing spawns into the game until it is almost close enough to be seen. The "assets" are tracked in a database, so it looks like the world is alive all around you, but only the immediate area is actually 3D. This reduces load times considerably, and makes the Save game much more stable - so long as the modders ( ) don't make things a mess with bad data...

Disadvantages of SH4 are that the devs never quite finished the game (surprise there, eh??), in spite of the "payware" v1.5 "update" that added the U-Boats to SH4. Equipment "upgrades" can be bothersome, and quite a few do fail, especially turm upgrades in OM and DW. I am not certain how deeply the KSD folks got into the weeds with atttempts to "fix" the issues, but surely someone can comment about that. There are work-arounds for the issues, but like a lot of thngs "Silent Hunter", are kludges...

Since you have it, I would load it up, add Dark Waters to it, use MultiSH4 and change the Save folder name, and start experimenting. Run a career from a base / timeframe of your choosing, and do the same in SH3 at the same time. Compare your experience between the two. I like all three games for varying reasons, but for me, it is still SH3 for the U-Boats, and SH4 for the US Pacific, with SH5 (with TWoS) in a distant third...

Many thanks, propbeanie!

Okay, so, no h.sie or stiebler hardcode fixes. That's good to know.

My idea is to,
A. stay with the Atlantic but
B. also, be able to go to the Far East.

If I understand correctly, for this I install,
1. The Sh4 Gold (1st DVD),
2. U-Boat Missions (2nd DVD),
3a. Dark Waters, from Fifi or
3b. Operation Monsun from lurker_hlb3

So far, so good?

[Mad Mardigan]

(Word of warning, this will be a bit... lengthy, as there is... a lot of ground to cover...

you have been warned. )



As propbeanie pointed out, there are numerous choices when it comes to modding up SH4... a lot, but... will only focus on the 2 main ones here. Seeing as how you mentioned of wanting to keep to a certain feel of the game, as you have in SH3... am guessing you mean with staying in the Uboat realm of things... then will focus primarily on that side of the equation.


Of the Uboat side, there are 4 that come to mind here...

1. Original Operation Monsun

AfaIko, this requires v1.5 of SH4 (which by your comment, you should have what with mentioning the 'Gold' version, on cd/dvd available... )

This mod set, requires a bit of work to set up &... making sure to grab the right mods to add in, to round it out. (this is however, included in the next mod set mentioned...) That said, thee are add in mods, to avoid altogether... however.



2. Oper. Monsun: Dark Waters (latest v6)

This mod set, is the original, cleaned up & refined with some of the additional mods, plus some further refinements, that got their start with SH3 & ported over for SH4.

This, by far, of the 1st 2, is the one to focus on more... in My humble opine... if you just want to focus on this set up option. If not, then onwards we go...



3. KSD II: The original.

This particular mod set, is like O. M.: Dark, a further refinement of the Uboat war... only downside to it... it was originally set up, to accommodate multiplay with all involved... having the same mod set up. In its own right, not really a grand choice... unless you're willing to find others with this set up, to multi play it... which.. not sure if there are or not, others still doing so... To be quite completely, frank about it. That said, turning to the final option...



3 KSD II: Ace edition.

As with O.M. : Dark, this set up, is a further refinement in some volunteers, took time to iron out translating the orders, messages & such... into an eng. translation. While not perfect... it does make it to where one can roll with it & do a career, which the original didn't.



Those mentioned here, so far... are just the Uboat side of SH4... & 4, does have strengths as well as weaknesses, as outlined by propbeanie in their reply.


The biggest strength is, unlike in 3... you don't get a patrol lasting 24 hours, then left to 1's own devices on what to do, short of hitting up a resupply ship or milk cow uboat... which unless you have it set up to simulate aka faux docking, which was in My opinion... a buzz killer.


4, however... fixed it, to where you can pull, in to a friendly port, restock back up then head back out fairly & relatively pain free... & continue on your merry way... sinking targets.


Downside to that, still... is that any major damages to your sub... have to end up in being repaired, after docking back in at base. As was the case, in real life...


Patrols, can be extended as did happen in real life, by doing a status report... aka radioing home. Where you then get new orders.


Just as with 3, in 4... to log your kills, you'll still have to do a RTB, to register them. Thereby, ending that patrol.


The damage models, are a bit better in 4, over its predecessor, 3... which is, a very big + factor. Some mod sets, have further refinements in that area... which makes it all that much more enjoyable, when you see or watch a target go under. Just be careful, to not get star struck on watching all the time, as the defenders, can be... madder than hornets, out for your head to mount on their trophy wall...


Which brings up 1 final downside... the A.I., as it goes for the enemies, can either be... dumb as a box of rocks, or downright evil nasty... depending... on how the modder, set them up to be... as that are, is still a bit of a work in progress, to refine them... to be more... realistic, in their reactions & in their abilities. Though, even 3... had that as well.




Hope this helps... as always...







M. M.

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

Many thanks, propbeanie!

Okay, so, no h.sie or stiebler hardcode fixes. That's good to know.

My idea is to,
A. stay with the Atlantic but
B. also, be able to go to the Far East.

If I understand correctly, for this I install,
1. The Sh4 Gold (1st DVD),
2. U-Boat Missions (2nd DVD),
3a. Dark Waters, from Fifi or
3b. Operation Monsun from lurker_hlb3

So far, so good?

A & B: Yes, with this... would be able to do so, but note.. there are a few... cracks in the floor... that you may or may not slip through & get orders that can... bollux up the works.

That said, there are... workabouts, to get things back on track...

As for 1, 2, 3a/3b...

To run more than 1 copy modded set up... would need the following items...

JSGME (as with adding in mods on SH3)

MultiSH4: needed to set up separate save folders... to avoid cross save game contamination... obviously.

To set up to do so, would need to 1st install the cd/dvd copy into a user created folder... My suggestion as follows:

C:/Games/SH/Megamods/SH4/SH4 (needed to then use the original install as a go to gold standard virgin copy) then can create folders named accordingly to whatever mod set your going to roll with, from here on out.

In creating mod set up SH4 copies, then can just open the regular SH4... copy the guts in there & then paste them into the new minted aptly named folder... easy peasy... mac & cheesy...

Since you ran the initial install, everything will be set up ready to use with the herein copied guts in the new folder.

Only thing you'll then need to do, is to edit the SH4.exe as needed... with compatibility, read only unchecked... & run as admin status...

The only thing am NOT sure of... is of setting it up, to NOT have to have the disk in the drive tray... on that, I'll step aside & let any that know that process... step up to the plate.





M. M.

[Mad Mardigan]

Do NOT install in the default... ever...

My own opinion, game launchers... games... should studiously, seriously... NEVER, EVER installed in either 'Program files' locations, the standard one or the (x86) one... EVER.!

Did I strongly stress, NEVER... hmmm...







M. M.

[Kapitän]

Okay, many thanks to all of you for all the information!

Looks to me like, I would like to go with the #4 Option, KSD II: Ace edition.

Just to be clear: This Mod would allow me to operate both in the Atlantic and the Far East, yes?

So, what would the installation be:

1. The Sh4 Gold (1st DVD) - not sure if it is version 1.5, I guess one will only know once it is installed?

2. U-Boat Missions (2nd DVD) - is this still needed, or is one of the Mod's installed instead of this one?

3. #4 Option, KSD II: Ace edition - where do I get this, please?

4. JSGME for activating point 3. - clear

5. MultiSH4: Not sure about this one, as I do not plan to have more than one Sh4 installation ...

6. My current Sh3 installations are installed on D:\ not in any Program Folders - so, if I do this with Sh4 as well, should be okay, yes?

Am I missing anything?

[Jeff-Groves]

KSD II Link

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...d.php?t=250525


The U-Boot add on will update you to 1.5

[Kapitän]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

KSD II Link

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...d.php?t=250525


The U-Boot add on will update you to 1.5

Great, thanks for the download link!

So, I do install both DVDs, yes?

How does the installation work?
1st DVD first and the 2nd DVD on top of the 1st install?

[Jeff-Groves]

yes on the DVD install.

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

Okay, many thanks to all of you for all the information!

Looks to me like, I would like to go with the #4 Option, KSD II: Ace edition.

Just to be clear: This Mod would allow me to operate both in the Atlantic and the Far East, yes?

So, what would the installation be:

1. The Sh4 Gold (1st DVD) - not sure if it is version 1.5, I guess one will only know once it is installed?

2. U-Boat Missions (2nd DVD) - is this still needed, or is one of the Mod's installed instead of this one?

3. #4 Option, KSD II: Ace edition - where do I get this, please?

4. JSGME for activating point 3. - clear

5. MultiSH4: Not sure about this one, as I do not plan to have more than one Sh4 installation ...

6. My current Sh3 installations are installed on D:\ not in any Program Folders - so, if I do this with Sh4 as well, should be okay, yes?

Am I missing anything?

Yes, to the best of My knowledge... operations out of either the Atlantic, or from the pacific. Though, if you grab KSD II: Ace, is no need to pre install SH4, as that mod set... would include SH4 v1.5, complete.


The only thing then, would be to unzip the mod set... set up where you want it to be located... think JSGME, comes pre packed in there. After setting up where it will be installed, is just opening JSGME & activation of the additional optional mods.... &... done.



The only thing left would be, to use either 4GB patch, on the SH4.exe for it... or, to utilize Large Address Aware, on the SH4.ex, to assign it status of ability to use 4GB's RAM.


Myself, I use LAA, as some refer to Large Address Aware, by... in short hand.


Even if now, you have no plans to do other mod sets, using SH4... I'd still... strongly recommend, keeping the initial 'stock install you do, with that cd/dvd set... in a pristine manner... on the off chance, that you do decide, to roll with other mod sets. Which... would necessitate, using MultiSH4, to keep that KSD II: Ace save folder, separate from the pristine SH4's one.


What's that old... adage... Better safe, than sorry... meaning, better to do so, than to decide later you want to roll with another SH4 mod set & have to shart can everything.


With setting up from the cd/dvd... yes to using both 1. then 2., so as to have the SH4 install, be up to v1.5, for that pristine install. (To be frank, haven't ever had to do installs from cd/dvd for some time now... even though, I still have the original cd/dvd drive n My rig... though, I still do recall the basics of doing installs from it.



3. Jeff Groves, provided the location to d/l that from...

Thanks, Jeff...



6. Yes, that is good... as being on another HD than the one your computer operating system is, (which is C:/ by default any way... no need to have to create any folder to send SH4 from your disk copy (or from any other source, such as Stem, Ubi... etc.) to keep it out of UAC's terror-tory. )


So... all good there.


Sounds like your, pretty... much set to roll, with set up of KSD II: Ace, then...









M. M.

[Kapitän]

Originally Posted by Mad Mardigan

Yes, to the best of My knowledge... operations out of either the Atlantic, or from the pacific. Though, if you grab KSD II: Ace, is no need to pre install SH4, as that mod set... would include SH4 v1.5, complete.


The only thing then, would be to unzip the mod set... set up where you want it to be located... think JSGME, comes pre packed in there. After setting up where it will be installed, is just opening JSGME & activation of the additional optional mods.... &... done.



The only thing left would be, to use either 4GB patch, on the SH4.exe for it... or, to utilize Large Address Aware, on the SH4.ex, to assign it status of ability to use 4GB's RAM.


Myself, I use LAA, as some refer to Large Address Aware, by... in short hand.


Even if now, you have no plans to do other mod sets, using SH4... I'd still... strongly recommend, keeping the initial 'stock install you do, with that cd/dvd set... in a pristine manner... on the off chance, that you do decide, to roll with other mod sets. Which... would necessitate, using MultiSH4, to keep that KSD II: Ace save folder, separate from the pristine SH4's one.


What's that old... adage... Better safe, than sorry... meaning, better to do so, than to decide later you want to roll with another SH4 mod set & have to shart can everything.


With setting up from the cd/dvd... yes to using both 1. then 2., so as to have the SH4 install, be up to v1.5, for that pristine install. (To be frank, haven't ever had to do installs from cd/dvd for some time now... even though, I still have the original cd/dvd drive n My rig... though, I still do recall the basics of doing installs from it.



3. Jeff Groves, provided the location to d/l that from...

Thanks, Jeff...



6. Yes, that is good... as being on another HD than the one your computer operating system is, (which is C:/ by default any way... no need to have to create any folder to send SH4 from your disk copy (or from any other source, such as Stem, Ubi... etc.) to keep it out of UAC's terror-tory. )


So... all good there.


Sounds like your, pretty... much set to roll, with set up of KSD II: Ace, then...









M. M.

Okay, many thanks!

Let me get this straight, just to be sure:

Your recommendation is to,

1. Install from the DVD the original SH4 (DVD1) plus the U-Boat Add-on (DVD2), in order to have a original unmoded install on the PC for reference, yes?

2. Install KSD II Ace, without pre-install of 1.
In this case, there is an Add-On included in this Mod, which is to be installed via JSGME (also, included in this Mod), yes?

3. Install MulitSH4, just in case, I do decide to install another SH4 version - where may I find this, please?

4. Apply 4GB-Patch to SH4.exe - I might need some help with this one ...

Thanks!

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

Okay, many thanks!

Let me get this straight, just to be sure:

Your recommendation is to,

1. Install from the DVD the original SH4 (DVD1) plus the U-Boat Add-on (DVD2), in order to have a original unmoded install on the PC for reference, yes?

2. Install KSD II Ace, without pre-install of 1.
In this case, there is an Add-On included in this Mod, which is to be installed via JSGME (also, included in this Mod), yes?

3. Install MulitSH4, just in case, I do decide to install another SH4 version - where may I find this, please?

4. Apply 4GB-Patch to SH4.exe - I might need some help with this one ...

Thanks!

1. Coooorrrrreeeect. Very useful, for frame of reference, & added bene's, of being able to copy the guts of it... to drop into a new minted apt named folder (named whatever other mod you decide to go with... example: O.M.-DWv6), should you decide to roll with another mod set up, & makes it easier, to do so.

Be prepared, is the watch word. Better to have it & not need it, than to Need & want it... & NOT have it.


2. Yes, again... correct. The package for KSD II: Ace, will have everything you need & iirc, should have JSGME in the set. I do believe.

If not, if you have SH3 set ups, & have them modded via JSGME... is but a simple task, to just copy JSGME application, & paste it into the SH4 folder/s (depending on, should you chose to go with more than 1 modded version of SH4 v1.5)


3. MultiSH4, found here:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...do=file&id=433

4. 4GB patch, is 1 method of assigning the SH4.exe, 4GB's of RAM access, but... Myself... I find it loads easier, to just simply use LAA, instead. It is a... simple, 3 step process...

1. Tell LAA where the .exe is located.

2. Check mark the box, to set that .exe with access to 4GB's RAM useage...

3. Click Accept... &....

Done.!

To make it simple to find, LAA can be found... here:

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/a...0_4-zip.34392/








M. M.

[Kapitän]

Originally Posted by Mad Mardigan

1. Coooorrrrreeeect. Very useful, for frame of reference, & added bene's, of being able to copy the guts of it... to drop into a new minted apt named folder (named whatever other mod you decide to go with... example: O.M.-DWv6), should you decide to roll with another mod set up, & makes it easier, to do so.

Be prepared, is the watch word. Better to have it & not need it, than to Need & want it... & NOT have it.


2. Yes, again... correct. The package for KSD II: Ace, will have everything you need & iirc, should have JSGME in the set. I do believe.

If not, if you have SH3 set ups, & have them modded via JSGME... is but a simple task, to just copy JSGME application, & paste it into the SH4 folder/s (depending on, should you chose to go with more than 1 modded version of SH4 v1.5)


3. MultiSH4, found here:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...do=file&id=433

4. 4GB patch, is 1 method of assigning the SH4.exe, 4GB's of RAM access, but... Myself... I find it loads easier, to just simply use LAA, instead. It is a... simple, 3 step process...

1. Tell LAA where the .exe is located.

2. Check mark the box, to set that .exe with access to 4GB's RAM useage...

3. Click Accept... &....

Done.!

To make it simple to find, LAA can be found... here:

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/a...0_4-zip.34392/








M. M.

Many thanks, again!

I was bussy the last few days, so, couldn't respond ...

I will give this all a try (not sure when exactly due to work) and will come back with any follow-up questions.

Last point of interest: Is there a Sh(3)_Cmdr Version for Sh4, as well?

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

Many thanks, again!

I was bussy the last few days, so, couldn't respond ...

I will give this all a try (not sure when exactly due to work) and will come back with any follow-up questions.

Last point of interest: Is there a Sh(3)_Cmdr Version for Sh4, as well?

Short answer...

No.

There was looked at, of doing 1, but the creator after some dust up or other... not sure of the exact particulars on that... chucked in the towel on doing a SH4Commander, so all I can say, for definite is...

is that No, there is no SHCommander for SH4.




As for any follow up questions, there is always those, so if you feel there is a need for them, bring them on... am sure Myself, or any other with the knowledge/experience, will be more than happy & willing to answer them.