SH1 - lack of escorts?

MarkShot · 10-09-06, 02:03 PM

I haven't played much SH1 (maybe more AOD).

Anyway, I started a career in early '42. I haven't seen that convoys (even medium) are well escorted. In fact, yesterday, I ran into a medium convoy with not a single escort.

Does this have anything to do with historical modeling? Meaning in the beginning of the war the USN was going after capital ships and then later they switched to commerce raiding. So, are Japanese merchants going to be better escorted in '43 and '44? (Also, as the number of merchants a reduced that should leave more escorts available for the remaining merchants.)

Thanks.

Hitman · 10-12-06, 01:18 PM

Yes that is correct. The japanese Navy did not react properly to the use of the submarines as commerce raiders until the war advanced more, and even then their ASW tactics where not as effective as the allied ones. But anyway you will be able to see heavy escorts in mid 1943 onwards convoys, coupled with the not-too-big convoys, which makes it very challenging.

MarkShot · 10-12-06, 01:47 PM

Okay, thanks for that info.

Although I could start a new career later in the war, I think I will just use this time for practice. I want to, at least, experience the entire war before later choosing my favorite years and maps.

PS: Thanks for your PA answer too. I must say it is a shame. So many hard hours of work and talent went into PA and it is still very much limited by issues with the SH2 engine. Almost to the point, that I think, given that I have AOD and SH1 working nicely enough, that further struggling with PA isn't worth it.

aanker · 10-12-06, 06:02 PM

Analysis of the Silent Hunter dat files shows the number of Destroyers of various classes available to the game decreasing as time progresses however in my experience playing the game, the convoys and warship groups are better escorted as time advances through the War.

SSI did a great job making the game realistic (for 1995-6 computers) and I hope Ubisoft does too with SH4.

Art Anker

Hitman · 10-17-06, 02:13 AM

Which files are you referring to, Art? Is it possible to "see"/modify the campaign files somehow? The only major fault I have always encountered in SH1 is the excessive number of convoys and shipping. The traffic is too intense, probably because in version 1.0 of the game you were limited to 256x time compression, and without huge numbers of ships you would have had too boring patrols (For the average consumer, not for the ones who like realism).

MarkShot · 10-17-06, 10:52 AM

Yes, that is the one big difference between AOD and SH1. In AOD, you have to go out there and hunt. In SH1, once you know the good spots (even without using the main map) it becomes almost like instant action - 2048X "Ship spotted, Sir!".

The other major difference I find is that with AOD, you may trail a convoy for days and make repeated attacks. In SH1, due to the small size of the maps and that you so often pick these things up close to the shallows, you tend to make single attacks that are less calculating. Three other factors which also reduce making multi-day multiple attacks are: (a) own speed is impacted by sea state, (b) convoys tend to move much faster than AOD and not zig, (c) AOD allows recharging at flank and SH1 not above standard.

ChristopherT · 10-26-06, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aanker

Analysis of the Silent Hunter dat files shows the number of Destroyers of various classes available to the game decreasing as time progresses however in my experience playing the game, the convoys and warship groups are better escorted as time advances through the War.

SSI did a great job making the game realistic (for 1995-6 computers) and I hope Ubisoft does too with SH4.

Art Anker

That's correct! As the war progressed the Japanese shipbuilding industry couldn't keep up with the destruction the US Navy and the Sub Force inflicted on Japan. The concentration of ship building priorities was changed to homeland defense and special projects like the Suicide Attack Frogman "Fukuryuu", "Kaiten" Type1 Suicide Attack Midget Submarines and the "Kairyu" Midget Submarines.

No comments on SH4, but I'm still running SH1 and CAOD.

Christopher

aanker · 10-28-06, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitman

Which files are you referring to, Art? Is it possible to "see"/modify the campaign files somehow? The only major fault I have always encountered in SH1 is the excessive number of convoys and shipping. The traffic is too intense, probably because in version 1.0 of the game you were limited to 256x time compression, and without huge numbers of ships you would have had too boring patrols (For the average consumer, not for the ones who like realism).

I am sorry, I thought I was subscribed to this thread so I missed your reply.

The files are in the DATA directory: IJNSHIPS.DAT and SHIPS.DAT. Kim Ronhof (the great) wrote a program we were toying with using in our Pacific Thunder Campaign to restrict warships if they were already sunk in the campaign. These files list all of the ships available to the game by date. The restriction program is approx 446 kb so I could email it to you if you are interested. It reads SHIPS.DAT and writes to IJNSHIPS.DAT and backs up the IJNSHIPS.DAT to restore later.

Kim also wrote a manual navigation program so I patrol using the 12 mile map and only look at the big map once a day. THAT cuts down on contacts! lol

Art

Hitman · 10-29-06, 07:14 AM

Ah, I see, thanks....

the reason I asked you ws because I thought that if the data files could be somehow modified I could try to reduce the huge number of convoys and shipping in the maps. A lot less traffic would make the sim overall more realistic...

aanker · 10-30-06, 04:29 PM

Yes, it is the same problem you guys had when making Pacific Aces: no access to the source code. Otherwise there would be hope for fixing things like that.

Art

LeafsFan · 11-13-06, 02:12 PM

I liked that game when it came out, but much preferred AOD. I always thought there should have been a lot more ships sailing independently early in the war.

10-09-06, 02:03 PM	#1
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	SH1 - lack of escorts? I haven't played much SH1 (maybe more AOD). Anyway, I started a career in early '42. I haven't seen that convoys (even medium) are well escorted. In fact, yesterday, I ran into a medium convoy with not a single escort. Does this have anything to do with historical modeling? Meaning in the beginning of the war the USN was going after capital ships and then later they switched to commerce raiding. So, are Japanese merchants going to be better escorted in '43 and '44? (Also, as the number of merchants a reduced that should leave more escorts available for the remaining merchants.) Thanks. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

10-12-06, 01:18 PM	#2
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,099 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	Yes that is correct. The japanese Navy did not react properly to the use of the submarines as commerce raiders until the war advanced more, and even then their ASW tactics where not as effective as the allied ones. But anyway you will be able to see heavy escorts in mid 1943 onwards convoys, coupled with the not-too-big convoys, which makes it very challenging. __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

10-12-06, 01:47 PM	#3
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Okay, thanks for that info. Although I could start a new career later in the war, I think I will just use this time for practice. I want to, at least, experience the entire war before later choosing my favorite years and maps. PS: Thanks for your PA answer too. I must say it is a shame. So many hard hours of work and talent went into PA and it is still very much limited by issues with the SH2 engine. Almost to the point, that I think, given that I have AOD and SH1 working nicely enough, that further struggling with PA isn't worth it. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

10-17-06, 02:13 AM	#5
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,099 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	Which files are you referring to, Art? Is it possible to "see"/modify the campaign files somehow? The only major fault I have always encountered in SH1 is the excessive number of convoys and shipping. The traffic is too intense, probably because in version 1.0 of the game you were limited to 256x time compression, and without huge numbers of ships you would have had too boring patrols (For the average consumer, not for the ones who like realism). __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

10-17-06, 10:52 AM	#6
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Yes, that is the one big difference between AOD and SH1. In AOD, you have to go out there and hunt. In SH1, once you know the good spots (even without using the main map) it becomes almost like instant action - 2048X "Ship spotted, Sir!". The other major difference I find is that with AOD, you may trail a convoy for days and make repeated attacks. In SH1, due to the small size of the maps and that you so often pick these things up close to the shallows, you tend to make single attacks that are less calculating. Three other factors which also reduce making multi-day multiple attacks are: (a) own speed is impacted by sea state, (b) convoys tend to move much faster than AOD and not zig, (c) AOD allows recharging at flank and SH1 not above standard. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

10-12-06, 06:02 PM	#4
aanker Pacific Thunder Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yellow Sea Posts: 1,896 Downloads: 236 Uploads: 14	Analysis of the Silent Hunter dat files shows the number of Destroyers of various classes available to the game decreasing as time progresses however in my experience playing the game, the convoys and warship groups are better escorted as time advances through the War. SSI did a great job making the game realistic (for 1995-6 computers) and I hope Ubisoft does too with SH4. Art Anker

10-29-06, 07:14 AM	#9
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,099 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	Ah, I see, thanks.... the reason I asked you ws because I thought that if the data files could be somehow modified I could try to reduce the huge number of convoys and shipping in the maps. A lot less traffic would make the sim overall more realistic... __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

10-30-06, 04:29 PM	#10
aanker Pacific Thunder Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yellow Sea Posts: 1,896 Downloads: 236 Uploads: 14	Yes, it is the same problem you guys had when making Pacific Aces: no access to the source code. Otherwise there would be hope for fixing things like that. Art

11-13-06, 02:12 PM	#11
LeafsFan Watch Officer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 332 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	I liked that game when it came out, but much preferred AOD. I always thought there should have been a lot more ships sailing independently early in the war.