SHII and destroyer AI

[Hinrich Schwab]

I read from the SUBSIM archives that the destroyer AI in SHII was a bit too good. I am in the middle of a generated mission right now and I wholeheartedly agree. I am playing an early war scenario and the destroyer busted out my XXI boat at All Stop on silent running. I lost him and have him leeward of the convoy, but I can only imagine who out of luck I would have been were I in a VII, IX or an Einbaum. Obviously, I have to treat the AI with greater care than the AI in III. Any advice from the Old Gang on how to avoid some of the nastier aspects?

EDIT: I did manage to sink the three ships clean despite the rabid AI.

[aanker]

Redwine made, "historical_depth_charges_letal_radius_mod_v1.0.zi p" for the DC's and it looks from the readme that he did a lot of research.

There is even a Hard mode and a Real which is easier.

If you want dumb DD's the save game bug may be your answer, I know from Pacific Aces if you restart a saved game the DD's aren't as aggressive and I'm almost positive this is a SH II hard coded glitch or the PA team would have fixed it.

Hope that helps.

Happy Hunting - even if you're sinking Allied shipping...

Art

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by aanker

Redwine made, "historical_depth_charges_letal_radius_mod_v1.0.zi p" for the DC's and it looks from the readme that he did a lot of research.

There is even a Hard mode and a Real which is easier.

If you want dumb DD's the save game bug may be your answer, I know from Pacific Aces if you restart a saved game the DD's aren't as aggressive and I'm almost positive this is a SH II hard coded glitch or the PA team would have fixed it.

Hope that helps.

Happy Hunting - even if you're sinking Allied shipping...

Art

I don't want them dumb, just subject to simulated human error within historical contexts of the specific portion of the war. If I wanted dumb, I would pop in SH5 and remove IRAI. Of course, I am talking about a 12-year old game that doesn't see much action anymore, too.

I will look into the depth charge mod, but I wasn't attacked, just spotted. I went deep and got skinny before the DD did anything. I lost him once I got to 210m and below the thermocline. He started snaking about while I went windward of him and the convoy.

My issue is that I do not expect Early War DDs* to be as savvy (and as rabid) as Late War DDs with all of the sensory twinkies to make them better. I am dealing with V&Ws and Clemsons, not Oliver Hazard Perry frigates. Likewise, I expected the XXI to be stealthier than it is in this game. I may just be expecting too much from an old game with old code. The newer games probably spoiled me.

As far as the "save game bug", I think this issue is from the engine being incapable of saving sensor contacts. It resets each time the engine is initialized. It apparently applies to AI units, too.


*The only exception to this is an Admiralty V&W Class with "D27" on the hull.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Schwartzritter

I don't want them dumb, just subject to simulated human error within historical contexts of the specific portion of the war. If I wanted dumb, I would pop in SH5 and remove IRAI. Of course, I am talking about a 12-year old game that doesn't see much action anymore, too.

I know this doesn't help, but I just had to say it: The most realistic (or at least believable) experience I ever had was with Aces Of The Deep. There were mostly average destroyers, but every now and then I'd get one that was like a bloodhound, always sniffing me out and nearly impossible to lose. And then one time I had one charge my position, so I went deep and started praying. To my surprise and delight he rolled right over me at flank speed and then slowed down and started searching about a mile beyond my position. He stayed there until my first torpedo hit a merchant and then he went racing back to the convoy only to start looking somewhere else. It gave the impression that he wasn't dumb but actually picked up a false sonar contact and followed it.

I've never had any sim since do something even remotely like it. SH3 has come close a couple of times, with escorts dropping charges in the distance.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I know this doesn't help, but I just had to say it: The most realistic (or at least believable) experience I ever had was with Aces Of The Deep. There were mostly average destroyers, but every now and then I'd get one that was like a bloodhound, always sniffing me out and nearly impossible to lose. And then one time I had one charge my position, so I went deep and started praying. To my surprise and delight he rolled right over me at flank speed and then slowed down and started searching about a mile beyond my position. He stayed there until my first torpedo hit a merchant and then he went racing back to the convoy only to start looking somewhere else. It gave the impression that he wasn't dumb but actually picked up a false sonar contact and followed it.

I've never had any sim since do something even remotely like it. SH3 has come close a couple of times, with escorts dropping charges in the distance.

I have AOTD and for an 18-year-old game it has my attention, but I can't get my slowdown programs to work well enough to slow my PC to run it right.

The "bloodhound" destroyer is what this guy was. He busted me out like no one's business. 3500m, I am at all stop with silent running and I hear him ping. I wait until he is half that before I see the course and speed change to tell me he found me. I make all the noise in the world running from him and he makes the mistake of turning leeward (in relation to the convoy) to start his search. I turn windward, follow the drill and he loses me outright. I didn't hear a single charge drop. I liked the AI in III, but its timing became a bit too predictable. I just installed GWX and am running a new career and I expect all sorts of "fun" from the escorts.

EDIT: I have played a few missions in II both vanilla and with PM. I see that the destroyers are still a bit too good, but fall for a simple tactic that I prefer to avoid using. They all act like "Bungo Pete" to a fatal flaw....and go down the same way.

[Wigbold]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

I read from the SUBSIM archives that the destroyer AI in SHII was a bit too good. I am in the middle of a generated mission right now and I wholeheartedly agree. I am playing an early war scenario and the destroyer busted out my XXI boat at All Stop on silent running. I lost him and have him leeward of the convoy, but I can only imagine who out of luck I would have been were I in a VII, IX or an Einbaum. Obviously, I have to treat the AI with greater care than the AI in III. Any advice from the Old Gang on how to avoid some of the nastier aspects?

EDIT: I did manage to sink the three ships clean despite the rabid AI.

Congratulations! Still problems with the "satellite-guided" DD's?
I think one of the main problem of the DD-strength is that SH II formerly was made in a great hurry. I don't know the DCMod above,but I have changed myself all DC-ranges to realistic ones. The realistic range of Ascdic, so my researches, was max. 2000yds at good conditions. The sim has often more. I set to 2000m (more than yards). Further the turn rates of all ships and boats are unrealistic long. I changed them on the base that ships in this times needed approximately 4 to 5 ship lengths for a U-turn.
But one main reason why the escorts can kill nearly every boat in the first or secand atack is that some sonar systems (I don't remember how much) have in the system files in the last line (Sensor can determine elevation or DEPTH) the setting TRUE!! But they couldn't; may be at the end of the war some escorts were fitted with depth finding equipment but the Q-Model is not modelled in the game. So the entry in one of the system files.
With this changes the escorts are really not harmless but you have a realistic chance to survive and that they will loose contact.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Wigbold

Congratulations! Still problems with the "satellite-guided" DD's?
I think one of the main problem of the DD-strength is that SH II formerly was made in a great hurry. I don't know the DCMod above,but I have changed myself all DC-ranges to realistic ones. The realistic range of Ascdic, so my researches, was max. 2000yds at good conditions. The sim has often more. I set to 2000m (more than yards). Further the turn rates of all ships and boats are unrealistic long. I changed them on the base that ships in this times needed approximately 4 to 5 ship lengths for a U-turn.
But one main reason why the escorts can kill nearly every boat in the first or secand atack is that some sonar systems (I don't remember how much) have in the system files in the last line (Sensor can determine elevation or DEPTH) the setting TRUE!! But they couldn't; may be at the end of the war some escorts were fitted with depth finding equipment but the Q-Model is not modelled in the game. So the entry in one of the system files.
With this changes the escorts are really not harmless but you have a realistic chance to survive and that they will loose contact.

I appreciate your input, but I found the real problem weeks ago; the veterancy of all units is set too high. All platforms in SHII/DC have a "Captain" and "Crew" setting. Altering these change the AI to match. The default is 80/80 (Veteran Captain, Veteran Crew). RedOctober1984 and I experimented with a mission I had made to see what a more reasonable level for Early War was. This setting is approximately 40/40. (Trained Captain, Trained crew).

[Wigbold]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

I appreciate your input, but I found the real problem weeks ago; the veterancy of all units is set too high. All platforms in SHII/DC have a "Captain" and "Crew" setting. Altering these change the AI to match. The default is 80/80 (Veteran Captain, Veteran Crew). RedOctober1984 and I experimented with a mission I had made to see what a more reasonable level for Early War was. This setting is approximately 40/40. (Trained Captain, Trained crew).

At first sorry that my answer lasts so long but I don't got a mail that you have replied.
Does the change of Captain/Crew settings really work? When I get solved another big problem I will test it. Perhaps you have had it too: I've made the experience that I can store a mission and another not or better, I can store but starting again to continue my boat gets list with around 40° or - much better - it starts flying to the moon, slowly like a hot air balloon. Because I've modified my sim.ini my extended janus log told me (so far I understand what's written there) that there are opening difficulties with model.JRF's. At first I had this with the downloaded modded "Kormoran" and now additionally with the NCCAdmHipper,jrf. They run without any bug but only the first time. After storing the mission the things above will happen. A cathastrophy.
To the crew/captain settings I've seen three possibilities: A) CrewRating = in the UDF-files, B) Proile = .. but nobody knows the correct parameters and C) Crew/Captain. It would be very helpful if the change of this parameters would really have a result in the game because we can manage then greenhorn crews or mixed with veterans and so on. I will post my results but at first I must know which JRF's cause the storing defect and I fear that this will last.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Wigbold

At first sorry that my answer lasts so long but I don't got a mail that you have replied.
Does the change of Captain/Crew settings really work? When I get solved another big problem I will test it. Perhaps you have had it too: I've made the experience that I can store a mission and another not or better, I can store but starting again to continue my boat gets list with around 40° or - much better - it starts flying to the moon, slowly like a hot air balloon. Because I've modified my sim.ini my extended janus log told me (so far I understand what's written there) that there are opening difficulties with model.JRF's. At first I had this with the downloaded modded "Kormoran" and now additionally with the NCCAdmHipper,jrf. They run without any bug but only the first time. After storing the mission the things above will happen. A cathastrophy.
To the crew/captain settings I've seen three possibilities: A) CrewRating = in the UDF-files, B) Proile = .. but nobody knows the correct parameters and C) Crew/Captain. It would be very helpful if the change of this parameters would really have a result in the game because we can manage then greenhorn crews or mixed with veterans and so on. I will post my results but at first I must know which JRF's cause the storing defect and I fear that this will last.

Yes, it does work. RedOctober1984 and I tested a specifically scripted mission I made to do just that. The default settings feel more like the appropriate reactions from a Late War crew while the settings I stated in a previous post make more sense with an Early War crew.