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Old 02-05-08, 02:41 AM   #1
MarkShot
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Default SHCE need help from you vets?

I have recently been playing three games in rotation: AOD, SHCE, and SH3/GWX2.

I have been having problems with one particular aspect of SHCE. On the whole, I like the game engine very much. For example:

(1) Challenging escorts (except too easy to hit with torpedoes).

(2) Decent weather and sea state modeling.

(3) The interface due to increased screen real estate is somewhat more ergonomic than AOD.

I found evasion and escape as much fun and as challenging as AOD and SH3/GWX2. However, not finding the attacks very satisfying.

In both AOD and SH3/GWX2, I can establish very careful tracks of convoys. That is not to see that it is without challenges, since especially in AOD, there are many zig-zags and GWX2 has apparently been improved in this area as well. Even still it is possible to stay with a convoy for hours to days and work the optimal time and place to attack.

In SHCE, this just is not the case. I am not generating meticulous tracks. Instead my attacks are turning out to be random hasty affairs. Why?

(1) The game play is divided into separate maps. The maps are fairly small and can be transitted in 1-2 days unlike the other games.

(2) AOD provides your convoy plot necessary for intercept. SH3/GWX2 has an extensive set of map tools for plotting your own tracks and intercepts. SHCE has not tools.

(3) SHCE has a high degree of TF surface groups. TFs move very fast; as fast as 30kts leaving little opportunity to intercept. SHCE convoys tend to travel much faster than AOD and SH3/GWX2 convoys. SHCE convoys can travel from 8kts close to 20kts. Sea state modeling in SHCE can cause a reduction of surface speed of as much as 25%; thus, 20kts down to 15kts.

(4) Early war radar sets tend to pick up contacts a very close ranges of 8,000-13,000 yards. This leaves little times to gather data for plotting. Also, the most straight forward radar intercept technique of simply turning into the contact produce very poor and unpredictable intercepts. A more refined technique of requiring two data collections requires the sub to lay to for 15-30 minutes. This time lost that is a problem with a fast moving contact contact; chances of an intercept is greatly reduced. Also for daytime radar contacts, you often establish visual contact shortly after radar contact. At which point, you must deal with the potential of the enemy seeing you.

(5) Many of the intercepts happen close to the coast line as opposed to blue water which limits the time and space for options to engage.

(6) Some maps are largely shallow areas with just barely enough water to run at PD. Attacks made under these conditions are dominated by avoiding having your boat trapped and once again option are limited.

(7) Enemy traffic is unrealistically heavy. Even when I study the map (I have shipping charts), there is so much traffic that you may end up with multiple contacts or not the type you had been expecting.

All of the above factors conspire to make most attacks a hastry scramble right after first contact is reported. This is very different than my preferred techniques used in other games where I spend a long time learning about the convoy, producing a very accurate track, positioning to the optimum point to attack in front submerged, etc... When I attack methodically, I achieve good results with minimal risk to my boat. SHCE gives me more of an instant action sub encounter feel.

As I have said, I like this game engine very much. If I could just do a better job of setting up for attacks, then I think I would be enjoying the game greatly. Instead now, I am quite frustated not being able to conduct the attack the drill the way I like to do it.

PS1: I know that I could try custom mission, I have 400+ custom missions, but I prefer to play the campaign.

PS2: I know that there are utilities which will allow to pick my map for my next war patrol. Thus, I try to limit my action to open blue water maps. However, I prefer taking random maps and I, in fact, want to play shallow ops, since they present a unique form of problem.

PS3: I know about the high periscope which will increase my visual spotting range.

So, can anyone offer me any tips as to what I am doing wrong? I really want to make my attack more calculated and therefore more rewarding and run. Thanks!!!
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Old 02-05-08, 02:56 AM   #2
donut
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SHCE is 11 years old

One would expect many inprovements.SHIV is superior surely.SHCE is my mis-spent youth:rotfl:Still fun !
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Old 02-05-08, 07:38 AM   #3
ChristopherT
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I think all you points are excellent and correct. However, I think that reenforces the realism that SHCE presents. Early radar did have a reduced range over the later models and there were cases when lookouts spotted aircraft before the early SD radars. In Germany, operations meant sending out the Uboats like a net, with Donitz in control of the whole show. Uboat Captains were constantly on the wireless to Germany, something that later on would prove to be a downfall. US Captains were basically given a patrol zone and set free to manage affairs as they saw fit. They did radio in contact reports on targets but only when they were forced to break contact or faced a superior force.

Japan didn't get into the convoy game until later in the war, and even then it wasn't as coordinated as the N. Atlantic convoys. Catching shipping along the shoreline was much more common in the Pacific theater than bluewater operations. There is much more shoal water in the Asian theater than in the N Atlantic. Especially around the Phillipines and Japanese islands.

Finding contacts you don't expect is SOP during a war. The enemy doesn't always play by the rules!

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Old 02-05-08, 08:33 AM   #4
MarkShot
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Donut,

There are quite a few areas where AOD and SHCE exceed the current games on the market. I would not be playing these older games (as I have a high-end system which easily plays SH3/4) if it were not so.

ChristopherT,

Point taken, but O'Kane talks of a number of long 8-24hr tracking parties. Not everything was a hasty scramble of accidental meetings. So, I am looking for just a little control of the setups. That's all. I could be wrong, but I figure that somewhere there must be something which I could do better.

Thanks.
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Old 02-06-08, 08:45 AM   #5
ChristopherT
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I'll have to grab a copy of his book from the library. I suppose if a contact showed up after sunrise and was advancing slow enough to track till nightfall. Maybe he was doing a end-around and the convoy speed was close to his top speed? I'm not saying it never happened, just that the odds are less likely. I'm getting up to speed on the scenario editor right now. I'm pretty sure I asked for MK-18 torpedoes in June 1945 but I got a boatload of Mk 14's.

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Old 05-16-08, 02:03 AM   #6
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Wow, how did I miss this thread! So many points...

I loved the map system for SHCE. You generally had your patrol area and stayed in that area. The best part of the CE, was the fact you could get assigned a special mission at any point. Those were a lot of fun. I avoided the shallow water missions and if I did venture into shallow water and came across a convoy, I'd usually go after the escorts first. But it has been a long time since I've played this.
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Old 05-18-08, 04:55 PM   #7
Sailor Steve
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Hey, McBee! I just discovered this thread myself (obviously). I had the opposite experience - I hated the maps. Of course that's mostly because of the lone freighter I was chasing down with my deck gun. Just when I thought I had him my sub slowly started turning around. I ordered the helmsman back after the target, but he insisted he was right and kept turning me the other way. I took a look at the map view, and sure enough, I was at the edge of the map and the game wouldn't let me go any further.:rotfl:

As to Mark's original question, I think his point 3 and point 7 offset each other. Yes there are Task Groups, so many of them that if you can't set one up another will be along soon enough. That was one of the things I started to dislike about SHCE. The other was the Time Compression sonar thing. I can't remember the number of times I was safely away, but as soon as I hit the TC button they heard me and came running back. Very frustrating.

Still, some of my fondest memories are of AOD and SH. But, as I've often pointed out, my addiction to the newer versions is the sight and feel of sailing out of the ports. It's just too real for me to go back.
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Old 06-08-08, 05:27 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Steve
Hey, McBee! I just discovered this thread myself (obviously). I had the opposite experience - I hated the maps. Of course that's mostly because of the lone freighter I was chasing down with my deck gun. Just when I thought I had him my sub slowly started turning around. I ordered the helmsman back after the target, but he insisted he was right and kept turning me the other way. I took a look at the map view, and sure enough, I was at the edge of the map and the game wouldn't let me go any further.:rotfl:

As to Mark's original question, I think his point 3 and point 7 offset each other. Yes there are Task Groups, so many of them that if you can't set one up another will be along soon enough. That was one of the things I started to dislike about SHCE. The other was the Time Compression sonar thing. I can't remember the number of times I was safely away, but as soon as I hit the TC button they heard me and came running back. Very frustrating.

Still, some of my fondest memories are of AOD and SH. But, as I've often pointed out, my addiction to the newer versions is the sight and feel of sailing out of the ports. It's just too real for me to go back.
Ha! Me too! I had re-installed one of my old ww2 rts games and after playing the newer games, it just wasn't the same anymore.
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Old 06-03-21, 03:00 AM   #9
JconradH
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Hi,
You have some great insight. I will agree with you on several points, especially too many convoys, however many people may have gotten bored and quit without them, amd the SSI folk had families to feed. I also read a quote from O'Kane where sometimes he would plot a course 90° to the convoy for intercept, saying it was crude but efficient in getting an intercept. Other points are addressed in this page I found a whe back. The link is still good!
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tlm/silent.html.

Jeff
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