New Cold Waters Screenshots

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

I personally like the idea. I thought SSN or DW did this, but it seems like they didn't. Maybe for the warships, it's easier to remember what they are. But seeing classes like Boris Chilikin or Ivan Rogov, it's hard to remember exactly what they are.

Remember that our models are orders of magnitude more accurate than what is in DW, so if you are unsure what a unit is, you can just move the camera over to it and see what radars and weapons it has. Unlike in Silent Hunter, our models don't have generic parts, and so all launchers and turrets are readily recognizable.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

SSN isn't as arcade as it looks. When you go up against the more capable enemies like Akulas and Kilos it can be very challenging.

With that logic, Super Mario Kart is not as arcade as it looks because the Donut Plains track is very challenging.
I think this isn't how it works.
Arcade doesn't imply difficulty, it implies (lack of) authenticity and level of realism.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Its main shortcomings were the poorly done surface forces and helicopters which always felt like they didn't have time to complete those features.

In fact, I liked SSN so much and it did so much right that it is one of the major influences on Cold Waters; the others being Red Storm Rising and Fast Attack.

Well that's your opinion and I respect it. But I sure do not agree, but that's of no matter, of course.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Also, the reason the designations are not there is because none of the sub games that influenced us had them, and so it never occured to us.

What sort of reasoning is that?
"Let's not do something because the predecessors didn't have it"?
I really do not see how this is helpful when developing a title - but you're the game developer, not me.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

We've also had to shorten the unit names anyway to fit our minimalist GUI, and I have about 10gb worth of UI concepts to not want to redesign it again.

Well, that sounds more reasonable indeed. But is adding a maximum of 4 digits (space and 2-3 letters) really pushing the boundaries when we have platforms with long Russian Names instead of, usual, short NATO class designations, combined with the type designation (SSN, ...)?

One last question, is this moddable?
Can I expect to find the units in form of a text file which contains the data and info, along with the designation?
Because then I really do not care further, I have no problems doing want I'd like to see in games myself - if possible.

[Julhelm]

We've actually shortened a lot of the long russian names that clipped the class display. Those screenshots are a few months old. And yes they are moddable so you can rename them into what you want.

And you're wrong on SSN. It's not meant to be a sim - the interview with Clancy and Littlejohns (RN submarine commander who was the chief designer) makes it clear that they wanted to make a visualisation of the tactical picture that exists only in the skippers' mind. If you play the game, you will find the enemy subs exhibit rather realistic behaviors - they use thermal layers to hide from you, they perform baffle checks and use sprint and drift tactics against you, to name a few. I would say it requires more tactics to win against the enemies in SSN than it does in stock SH4.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

And you're wrong on SSN. It's not meant to be a sim

And I never claimed it said so?
Interestingly enough though, you are mistaken.
It is officially a simulation, or it claims to be (I don't think it is, looking at the gameplay, hence I said I find it to be arcade).
But as I have learned, my opinion is wrong.
Can't argue against that, I guess.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

I would say it requires more tactics to win against the enemies in SSN than it does in stock SH4.

And I would blindly agree, since SHIV is a Ubisoft title. Fancy on the outside, garbage on the inside.


Look, I really don't see the issue.
I made a suggestion, others like it, you don't.
Mentioning that other naval sims do use NATO designations too was merely one supportive argument, not sure why this became the topic suddenly.

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Can't argue against that, I guess.

I played through the entire game and didn't find it to be mindless or arcade. Perhaps you can call it a lite sim. The aforementioned as well as the intro video starring mr Clancy himself seem to support this notion.

Look, I really don't see the issue.
I made a suggestion, others like it, you don't.
Mentioning that other naval sims do use NATO designations too was merely one supportive argument, not sure why this became the topic suddenly.

I'm all for suggestions, but you make it sound like this is some kind of dealbreaker which I find to be unjust. Especially since we took care to have accurately formated radio messages and even the news updates are written in an authentic 80's style.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

I played through the entire game and didn't find it to be mindless or arcade. Perhaps you can call it a lite sim.

That term fits rather well, yes!

Originally Posted by Julhelm

I'm all for suggestions, but you make it sound like this is some kind of dealbreaker which I find to be unjust.

Honestly, then you're reading things into my messages I never said.
Because what I said was:

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

I'm looking forward to your game either way and I'm sure it will be great.

And also mentioned multiple times that I do not care as long as it is moddable, which it is - so all good.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Especially since we took care to have accurately formated radio messages and even the news updates are written in an authentic 80's style.

Interesting fact here.
When I saw screenshots showing what you just mentioned, I made the decision to buy it. The art-style is right on and I love details like the radio message NATO format etc. This is what makes games rich, in my opinion.
I just wonder why you bring it up. I didn't complain about any of that, didn't even mention it, nor did I say your game is arcadeish altogether.

My argument was just that not having the designations makes a modern naval game appear a little arcade (in that regard, not overall), as if it doesn't matter that your target is a SSN, FFG, or whatever - when this is of utmost importance.
Not sure if you see my point, but that's really it. Never said anything about deal breaking. Or it being a big deal in the first place.

Just something that caught my eye.

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

SSN is an arcade game anyways, but DW sure does man.
(upper left?)

Yeah, it does it for ownship like that, and maybe with truth on, but it doesn't do it for non-truth contacts. It just says "KASHIN" for example.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

SSN isn't as arcade as it looks. When you go up against the more capable enemies like Akulas and Kilos it can be very challenging. Its main shortcomings were the poorly done surface forces and helicopters which always felt like they didn't have time to complete those features.

In fact, I liked SSN so much and it did so much right that it is one of the major influences on Cold Waters; the others being Red Storm Rising and Fast Attack.

Also, the reason the designations are not there is because none of the sub games that influenced us had them, and so it never occured to us. We've also had to shorten the unit names anyway to fit our minimalist GUI, and I have about 10gb worth of UI concepts to not want to redesign it again.

I was going to ask if it was a question of redesigning things, and I can completely understand not wanting to open up a huge can of worms at the last second lol.

[Julhelm]

I guess I just have a conditioned response to hearing the term 'arcade' from years of hearing it thrown about as an insult on sim forums. Sorry about that.

It's not a bad point but we never noticed this, and putting it in there means redesigning the minimap/data window which we just don't have the time to do anymore, since we're already delayed by several months

Right now we're working overtime crushing bugs, balancing the gameplay and making sure the game is challenging and entertaining.

At least contacts get denoted S for sonar, E for ESM, R for radar, V for visual and M for master.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

I guess I just have a conditioned response to hearing the term 'arcade' from years of hearing it thrown about as an insult on sim forums. Sorry about that.

No problem.

[ETR3(SS)]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

You mean class names or names of specific platforms?

Class names. When your driving you don't care so much what is named what, when you get moved to a more tactical position you start to learn more. I just didn't have enough time to learn them all.

[Julhelm]

So actually it turns out we could add this with code so that the designations show up in the signature window. We've always had the NATO designations in the actual ship files, since they are used in the mission generation code.

[stormrider_sp]

Is it possible to change the map symbology to NTDS?

[Julhelm]

For the strategic map, sure. I actually have an NTDS icon set made for it that could be released as a mod. For the ingame tactical plot no, since all of my research indicates the Mk81 FC display is not an NTDS display console, nor were the earlier Mk113 CRT's.